Ronda Payne | How To Transition From a 9 to 5 Job To A Freelancer

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And now your host, Joel Mark Harris.

Joel:  Hello, and welcome to the publishing for profit podcast. This is your host, Joel, Mark Harris, and we are on episode number 18. Today we have a very special guest on Ronda Payne. She is the owner of a Girl With A Pen. You can find her online at www.agirlwiththepen.ca. She is a freelance writer with a variety of work. Yes, everything from magazine articles, blog posts, ghostwriting and copywriting. today we talk about her transition from a full time nine to five job, right. To the world of freelance. So hopefully you enjoy this episode. Hi, Ronda. Welcome to the show. How are you today?

Ronda: I’m great. Thank you, Joel. How are you?

Joel: Excellent. So I want to start in a lot of your writing. You mentioned the influence your, your dad had on you. Can you talk a little bit about how he has influenced your writing and your storytelling?

Ronda: Aye. I have a hard time still talking about my dad. He passed away a few years ago and when it comes to stuff that he’s given me in terms of gifts, I once in a while get a little weepy.

So if my voice crackles you’ll understand, my dad was the most awesome storyteller. He was a salesman. He ran a glass shop where we lived in Abbotsford and he talked to everybody. He had a lot of interests in his life, and if anybody had complementary interests, he would pull out a story and he would just talk to them.

And then he would come home and tell us his family about these stories. And we’re a family of four. My mum, my dad, my brother and I, and my dad. Always took command of. The table.

And so that’s the introduction to my dogs who are my associates in my business. And I believe they’ve seen a squirrel out the front window.

I’m looking at my video screen going. Wow, I’m really rad. I’m very embarrassed about my dogs. So my goodness. Well, and this is, you know, the new life of people who aren’t used to working from home. They probably are laughing.

I am used to working from home and I’ve had to deal with this for years. This is not uncommon. So my dad would just take command of the dinner table and not because he was the dad or the man of the house, but because he could tell these excellent stories. And to this day, I still don’t know how much of everything was true.

I was a little embellished, but his style was just such that. People were wrapped up in it and pulled in. And I don’t have quite the same ability in person that he did, but it came out for me and writing and he just always encouraged that and loved to see me do that. And it’s, it’s telling a story that’s worth telling.

It’s telling a story that. People will find value in reading. So whether that is as you and I discussed beforehand, whether that’s in the copywriting side or the marketing side, or whether that’s a blog post that you’re ghostwriting for someone, or whether it’s your own creative writing, finding those elements that make it like my dad are the elements that you really want to hone in on and then run from there and pull the thread out to pull people in.

Joel: Have you always wanted to be a writer, I’m a kid. Is that something that you always aspire towards?

Ronda: Yes, always. from the moment I could hold a pen or a pencil as the case may be, We had a really old typewriter. You, you asked me about a typewriter and I will answer that question now. I have dreams of having an old typewriter, like a really old typewriter in my office.

And yet you look around and there’s really no room to put that in here. But one day when I find the right one at the right price, it’s going to go in here. And so we had one when I was a kid like a compact, like it was one of those ones where they had like a weird case on it and everything. But you could see through the keys the whole bit, right?

One of those really old, old ones. And the ability to just sit down and plunk away at the keys and tell a story or with a pencil. And I was always taking paper and folding it and cutting it and making little booklets and writing stories and those booklets yet in my family’s vernacular, there wasn’t really, A profession that, that fit that like, without giving away my age in the seventies, in my family, the belief was that if you were going to be a writer and that was going to be your profession, you either needed to be Stephen King or you were going to be basically.

A news correspondent and cover wars and famines. And at that point in time, neither of those things appealed to me. So as I got older, I considered different occupations, but I always came back to the writing and it drew me into what I did for a living for a number of years, which was marketing, but it was always about the writing always.

And I can remember even. Working in marketing and people would constantly say, well, can you write this for me? Can you write this for me? And so that’s just always what it’s been.

Joel: I know for myself, especially, I’m getting better at it. But as a kid, as a young adult, I really had a hard time expressing myself with words and telling people how I, how I felt.

And so I would always tell people I’d always express myself. through the written words through journaling through, just any type of writing, really. how has writing helped you express yourself?

Ronda: Ah, yes, same, same you and I same, same. I, I think that as a child, I didn’t feel my voice was valid and, I have no idea where that came from because it certainly wasn’t from my family.

I was always encouraged to share what I was experiencing, but for whatever reason, it just was the written word that. What allowed me to express things and I didn’t journal I’m and I don’t journal now. I’ve never been much of a journaler. It kind of, I don’t know. It creeps me out. I don’t know, a strange thing for a writer to say, but I like no, no.

So I would always write these stories. And even today, I only discovered this about five years ago. My stories, my creative writing has a constant thread through it. So I have a writers group that I’m part of. And it came up that every writer has a common thread through all of their creative writing.

And I thought about it and I thought, Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah, mine is, mine is abandonment. It’s abandonment, the need to belong. the need to be part of something being left behind. That whole theme is it runs through all of my stuff. Whether in you know, little ways I have a children’s book, that’s about bullying.

So again, not being included, I have a memoir that’s about, mental health in a cheeky sort of way. So it runs through it all. I think that comes from the fact that I’m adopted that there’s something in me that has always needed to come out. And it does. So in these very subtle ways or not so subtle,

Joel: that’s interesting that you, it doesn’t really, it seems like it doesn’t really matter what. Type of writing. What genre you pick that the themes always end up being similar or the same?

Ronda: It’s really bizarre, Joel because honestly, I’d never considered it until this came up in my, in my little writing circle.

And when I talk about my writer’s group, I’m part of a bunch of different writing communities, but this one specifically, there’s three of us and one gal that’s in the group. She’s constantly taking courses and workshops and she came back and she, I presented this thought that every writer has a. And I’m like, no, no, no.

You know, I right through books, I write children’s chapter books. I write adult fiction. I write memoirs. I write mystery. There’s no way there can be a common element. Even adult short stories. I’m like, there’s no way. And then when I started thinking about it, I’m like, Oh my gosh, look at that. And it is, it’s there.

Like I say, sometimes super saddle. And sometimes really obvious. So it’s fascinating. Actually.

Joel: Can you tell me a little bit about your writer’s journey? How did you become a writer full time? You know, what things you had to maybe overcome to get there?

Ronda: So on my notes, when you sent me the questions, I wrote a couple of notes and the one under this has a happy smiley face.

And then the word layoffs, which is a good thing to talk about right now. Because I was a marketer. That was my profession for again, I’m not going to reveal my age for a while. I was a marketer. I was a professional marketer and I went from industry to industry and I proved that marketing is marketing regardless of the company, the product service.

So I went from McDonald’s restaurants to banking to software to health and wellness product just went through this gamut of things and always did what I did always did this marketing thing. And the last two layoffs, I started to sense a shift in myself. I. Expected my career path would include me being a career marketer that today, as I sit here in this very eclectic office, that is me.

Instead of being here, I would be sitting in some very posh office, running a marketing team, and I’d be like the head of marketing and a senior VP and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it was the last layoff. And my husband and I were getting married a week later, we were going to Vegas to get me.

And I literally got laid off the day of his stag. So he was going out that night. And so he said, well, you know, do you, do you need me to stay home? And I’m like, don’t be ridiculous. Like plan for ages. All your friends are here. That’s crazy. I’m fine. And I realized that I’d kind of, I had lost the love for the marketing side.

I didn’t want to sell things anymore. I wanted to write and tell the stories. And when. I’m pausing because I’m trying to pull this timeout in a relevant way. Of course, I did what everybody does. I started applying for jobs. You know, we went off to Vegas, we got married, we came back, I took an extra week off and then I started applying for jobs and I kept not getting the jobs, but.

In ways that preserved my ego. So it was always, Oh, you know, it was a really hard decision between you and the person we chose. You know, we, if we could hire both of you, we would. So my ego was always preserved, but I never got the job. And so sitting at my desk one day, I got a phone call from a colleague and she said, Hey, while you’re not working full time, could you write some web copy for us?

And I’m like, yeah, sure, no problem. So that’s where it started. And I went out initially as a marketing consultant and writer. And it still wasn’t working because that part of my brain that had lost the love for marketing was still nagging at me. And then when I made the switch, yeah. I talked to, a dear mentor and I said to her, I’m like, things just aren’t, it’s just not meshing.

I’m not getting the clients. I’m things aren’t going the way I need them to. And she said, you’ve always been a writer. Why don’t you just write? And if people need the marketing, you bring the marketing, but just right. And that’s when the change happened. That’s when I branded myself as a writer. That’s what made the difference.

And. I think that what makes me different from other writers that people could hire is the fact that I have that marketing brain. So when a client comes to me and says, I need this, we can talk about why do you need that? Let’s talk about the marketing effort behind that and determine is that really what you need?

So it’s been hugely beneficial to me and my business, even as a freelancer. You know, writing for magazines and publications, the project management skills that I gained as a marketer, it’s just, yeah, it’s been super beneficial. So long answer. There you go. But that’s what you want. Right? You want long answers.

Joel: So it sounds like you had a definite mental shift and that was what helped you. I guess, turn a corner and say, yes, I’m going full in. I’m not turning back into a nine to five job.

Ronda: Yep. It was a big mental shift because like a lot of people, and I’m, I’m guessing a number of people who will watch this or still have this mindset.

Like a lot of people I grew up in a household where a job was nine to five. We talked about my dad earlier, who was an incredibly supportive person. And yet when I went out on my own, I, for a time I was contracting to a community paper. And so when they had somebody on vacation, I would do vacation coverage.

And of course, with the community paper, not during times of COVID, this is pretty common for a community paper. You had to be at the reporter desk in the office. So that you were available and you could go out on calls and you could do the stuff. So I had to be in their office and, that was, it was a good change of scenery for me that I’d be there maybe two or three days a week.

And then I’d be here in my office for the rest of the week. But my dad would say to me, Oh, are you going to work today? And I’d have to say to him, daddy, I go to work every day. No, no. You know what I mean? But he came from that nine-to-five mindset. Right. And I think that even though this nine to five job world is only, you know, it’s only like a century, century and a half old.

Of people working for other people. And yet we are so caught up in it and we’re so embracing of it because this is what almost all of us do. And now we’re starting to see the shift again, where people are taking control of what they do. It’s that concept? Who do you work for? Well, I work for me. Who do you work for now?

Joel: think that’s how it should be.

Ronda: I agree. I think if you can, I can’t say at the end of the day, you’re doing it for you. It’s soul-sucking. And I didn’t realize all those years that I was being a marketing executive and climbing the ladder and engaging with my staff and engaging with other VPs and all this stuff.

I didn’t, I didn’t realize what it was doing to my soul. I didn’t realize that that was just a fallacy based on what I thought I should be doing and what I thought I wanted. And then, we’re getting so much information about Ronda that your listeners may or may not want. I mentioned I was adopted, well, another thing that happened to me that a lot of listeners may be able to relate to is said, I went through some mental health issues.

And it was the depression and anxiety that told me the way I was living, wasn’t working for me. And through that, self-analysis, that’s where I learned that what I was doing. Wasn’t what, what Rhonda wanted, that it wasn’t fulfilling my needs and my desires as a human being as an independent school. So, Apologies to everyone, if that’s a little airy-fairy, but to be honest, that’s what my memoir is about is about, there’s this house that I bought at the time I was going through my worst mental health situation.

I’d gone through a divorce. I bought a house. If you’ve ever seen the movie, the money pit mine was worse. And I renovated this house and went through severe clinical depression at the time. And so I tell this story with humour so that people can know mental health. Doesn’t define you. If you’ve got mental health challenges that isn’t, it’s just a signpost saying something isn’t working and you need to find help and you need to find ways to change.

So, yeah. Yeah, that was a very long roundabout way of answering your question. I

Joel: think now is a good time to talk about your different writings. like you have your memoir, you have a children’s book. Gosh. How do you shift from the different genres?

Ronda: It’s a completely different mindset. So. When I talk about my creative writing, I’m very clear that that’s my creative writing.

When I talk about freelance writing. and these are my definitions like this may or may not work with what the world defines these things. As when I talk about freelance writing, when I’m a freelancer, for me, that means I’m writing for. A magazine or a publication or, or something like that, where it’s an article that I’m producing that is going to be published either in print or online.

So that’s my freelancer hat. And then I’m Rhonda, the writer slash copywriter where I write for my clients who are generally businesses who are looking for blogs, newsletters, case studies. That’s kind of where I hang my hat. I literally have to get up and move my body before I switched from one to the other, generally I prefer to do only one type of writing per day.

It doesn’t always work that way. Creative writing gets the least amount of my time because it doesn’t pay the bills. And we all like to eat. I want to make sure my dogs don’t resort to eating my cat. So. Paying the bills is good. And there’s a certain amount of fulfillment in what I do. Obviously I wouldn’t do it.

If there wasn’t, it’s just different. So pre-COVID when I would go and meet with my writer’s group and I’m looking at my dog, who’s looking her foot right now while we’re chatting. I would have to stop writing an article, grab my writing materials. I have a writing go bag in my closet that has all my creative writing stuff that I’m working on.

Grab my go bag. And then while I was in the car, change that mindset and go, okay. No longer are you focused on, I do a lot of agriculture writing, so no longer are you focused on what’s important to the farmer about, I don’t know the potato worm. Now you’re focused on you and what is happening with your character.

So to answer your question, Joel, it’s a huge mind shift. Like it’s massive. So I do have to do something physical to facilitate it. Otherwise it just doesn’t, I don’t know. Ends up being very muddy. And then, and then your writing and your writing on your writing, and you’re thinking, why is this not working?

And then you realize it’s because you’re still in that old mindset, trying to force out the new mindset. So yeah, if that, if someone else out there does something similar or wants to do something similar, I suppose that’s my biggest piece of advice is just get up. Go and make yourself a cup of tea, a coffee, have a sandwich, take a break, walk around the yard and then come to the new thing.

Joel: Can you tell our viewers listeners about your writing routine and what does your day to day look like?

Ronda: The day of a writer is never the same. My routine, the absolute joy of getting to work from home. My routine consists of getting up, going to the kitchen, taking care of the dogs, the cat, their needs. I make sure they’re all fad. put the catalogue on. In the spring, summer and early fall, I always have a walk around the yard.

You and I discussed before we started recording Joel, that I’m really fortunate that I live in a house that’s on two-thirds of an acre, so big old ugly house, but a fabulous yard. So I’ll walk around the yard to get grounded and then I will sit and go through. Administrative stuff I always start with.

Okay. Look at the email. Look at the social media, get caught up on that stuff. file a couple of tweet posts so that they’ll go out through the day and then that stuff is taken care of back to the kitchen. If the tea isn’t made, then I make the tea, I will put breakfast together. And then I come back to my desk knowing what that first task is.

So, I’m going to show you. Not that this will come across clearly. You won’t be able to see this clearly, but I’m going to show you the scribble please. So this mass is my week. So each Sunday, Sunday night, I hope you can see Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. So each Sunday I will lay out my week.

Oh, no. What is that supposed to happen during the week? And that’s based on electronics? I mean, of course, I use my computer, so I’ve got outlook. I go throughout, look, I look at everything that’s due. I make sure that I’ve transcribed meetings like you and I chatting today. That’s, you know, that’s on there.

And then from there Monday’s pretty easy. But then Tuesday, Wednesday, Oh my gosh. Something didn’t get done on Monday or Tuesday. So part way through the week, I end up with these things, but are now today’s like, so it’s rejigging the priorities.

Joel: And that’s a great lesson. What do you use? I guess flashcards?

Ronda: Yes. Well, Little scrappy bits of paper, scraps of paper. I have all over my office. And so I will be going from this call with you. I will go and do something physical to change my mindset, and then I’ll come back. And my first task is to all be working on a social media plan for a client. Have this never had a social media plan.

So there you go. That’s a day.

Joel: That’s a day in the life of a writer.

Ronda: Yeah. It’s chaos for writers who want to, who are listening to this. And they’re like, yes, I want to transition become a full time writer. What are some things that they can do to make that a reality?

Ronda: It’s not an easy jump and I don’t in any way, recommend going the route that I did, where it was cold Turkey.

But of course, if, if you’re laid off, you don’t really have a choice. If you have the comfort of having a job or having a financial buffer, I would recommend that you one tell. All of your colleagues, that this is what you’re doing for two reasons. One is that you’re vocalizing and you’re committing to what you’re going to do.

You’ve, you’ve made it into words so that it’s not so easy two, because you’re telling people and you may think in your head that, Oh, Nobody I know is, is going to need a writer. You don’t know who they know, you don’t know who the people will talk to and the conversations that they will have. My dad, again, back to my dad, my dad literally found me a client.

I mean, I would never have seen that coming ever, but. It was just somebody he was talking to, they asked what does your daughter do? And he said, my daughter’s a writer. And they’re like, Oh, what kind of writing does she do? And he expressed it as best he could. And they said, well, maybe we could talk to her and sure enough, they turned out to be a client.

So I would definitely tell everybody the other thing that you need to do is no boundaries when you’re first starting out. When you’re first starting out, you’re probably willing to, to take on some jobs pro bono. There’s nothing wrong with doing pro bono work so long as you get credit for it. Because when you’re first starting out, what you’re trying to do is build up a portfolio as well as your sense of confidence that you can do this and you can do this and be paid for it.

And sometimes that means doing it pro bono, as you progress, you’re going to set yourself some standards and know those boundaries, know those lines. One of my favourite stories. I like to tell about not knowing your boundaries was when I first started out, I was maybe a year into it. Things were not going the way I wanted them to go.

And I’m super lucky. My best friend works for a municipality and marketing. She and I met at BCIT taking the marketing course. That’s how we met. And so. Her boss would occasionally send work to me. He was a great guy, just a super great guy. Unfortunately, one of the jobs he sent my way was to interview all of the crematoriums in the province of British Columbia, create a report and about what services they offered.

That is so far out of my wheelhouse and it was horrible. It was a yucky job. It was because it was pure data, right. It wasn’t really being a writer. It was data. Even the report was not really, you know, it was a couple of paragraphs sandwiching. This Excel spreadsheet. So after I completed that and got paid for it, I realized was my life and never will I do another crematory of report in any shape or form.

So you going to know that lot. And at that point in time, Hey, I needed the money. And so you know that you know that at the time, it’s like, okay, I’m willing to take this, but I’m putting it out to the universe. I don’t want any more of this just because I’m taking this doesn’t mean I want this, this is not my order at the drive through window of the universe.

My order is something better. So yeah, there are things we do.

Joel: Yeah. I think one of the toughest things is saying no to work, and especially when you need the money, for sure.

Ronda: It’s really hard, but it’s true. It opens you up to the work if you want you can say no. Now when you do need the money, of course, you’re probably going to say yes to things you wouldn’t say otherwise.

I am really fortunate that I have a great team of other writers that are friends and colleagues, and I’m constantly referring, writing work. one of your previous guests, Robyn Rostye. Robyn and I constantly talk about things that are coming up. She’ll. You know, point out things that may be of interest to me, I’ll point out things that may be of interest to her because we focus on different areas.

So when you can surround yourself with fellow writers that can help out when see now I’m rambling and I’m sorry, Joel, but again, you asked me questions. So you’re going to get answers. when my dad passed away, it was, it was kind of rough because we had to. Get my mum and dad’s house ready for sale. Get my mum moved, sell off all of her stuff.

Cause we took her from 4,000 square feet down to a 600 square foot apartment. So I live, while my dad was sick and before he passed away up until the point that my mum moved for eight months, I lived half time at my parents and half time here at home. So it was really hard to stay on top of my work volume, but because I had this writing community of professional writers, I knew that I could call on them to help me and take on work for some of my clients and not worry that they were going to steal my clients.

Like there was, there is no fear of that with any of my writing colleagues. I have had cases where there’s been somebody in my past that did do something like that, but you’re going to learn that you’re going to learn to know who is your team and who isn’t your team. And let me tell you writing, we do it alone, but we don’t have to go it alone because you need a team.

You have to surround yourself with other writers, other people who understand and will support you. It’s a huge, huge, huge,

Joel: I think that’s a really important point because a lot of writers do feel like they’re alone, that they’re staring in front of the screen, you know, 10 hours a day, whatever it is. And it can be very lonely.

Ronda: And stuff like this that you’re doing, like you’re providing an incredibly important service because as much as people won’t be watching us live, at least they’re getting a sense of relationship and of community. And if they want to reach out to you or to me after this, after they’ve seen this or listen to this, they can.

And they can create that community. There are also a great number of professional writing organizations. So, I’m a member of , it’s not P whack anymore. Gosh, sorry. Hang on. We were the professional writers association of Canada and we changed and became the Canadian freelance Guild. So that’s one organization.

That’s great. That’s how I met Robyn. Knowing that there’s organizations like that out there is, is incredibly helpful, knowing that you can have a community. I’m also a member of the BC farm writers association, which is a part of the Canadian farm writers, which is a part of the international farm Reinders.

So knowing that you have colleagues that you don’t even know about can be so, so supportive that can just make them. The, like you say, sitting there staring at your screen going, you know, you’re not alone. You just need to remind yourself you’re not alone. And in those moments, reach out to your community.

Joel: And on that note, what is, what are some things that writers can do to market themselves?

Ronda: Ah, marketing, you need a website. It’s in this day and age, it’s not negotiable. Now mine is sorely out of date, badly out of date. And it has been on my list of things to do for probably three years now to update that website.

My samples are out of date. I, I think my web guy took the blog page down because that was so out of date. Like it’s just know these things happen and I mean, it’s a sign of being busy, right? But you have to have it. You have to have a website from that website. I do recommend blogging just if, for no other reason for practice, as well as for building up your SEO traction.

I’m lucky that I’m in Maple Ridge. There’s, there’s a few other writers here in Maple Ridge, but there’s not a lot. So if I were to use maple Ridge as a keyword, that would be beneficial, but not, you know, my clients aren’t from my own community. Yeah. Social media definitely is important. You want to make sure that you pick a couple, not all of them.

Don’t pick every platform cause you can’t maintain it. Like I’ve, I’ve had to drop Instagram. I love Instagram. I love it, but it can’t maintain it. So minor LinkedIn, Twitter and Facebook. Facebook more personal than anything, but Twitter and LinkedIn are my, are my business go tos. You also need to get out and network.

And for writers, again, like you were saying this can be hard, right? Because by nature, we do tend to be the behind the seniors. We’re not the people that are the life of the party. It’s important to get out and network again, not because that person you’re standing in front of. Needs a writer, but because they may know somebody who needs a writer and you want to build relationships, see who you can help me, maybe, you know, somebody that needs that person’s services or products.

So it’s, it’s an essential, whether you are a copywriter, a freelancer or a creative writer, you absolutely do need to market yourself. Look at folks like, Santa, I’m going to say Stephen King again, but you know, Stephen King has a website. Oh, I know who I wanted to mention Michael Slade and, okay. He’s another horror writer and I, and I’m not a super huge for a reader, but I took a couple of courses with Michael slate and.

His website is fascinating and it’s very specific to the type of writing he does. He gives you little Easter eggs all through the site. He’s got clues, he’s got fun stuff. So your website needs to be reflective of who you are and what you offer. It’s a lot harder for folks like us who do multiple kinds of writing.

It’s. Oh, my gosh. Like how do you structure your website? Right. And I think that’s part of the reason mine hasn’t been updated because I still flounder. So marketing. Yeah. it may not be your forte. It may not be your first choice, but you going to do it.

Joel: What sort of networking with you recommend?

Ronda: I always think it’s important to be part of your own local community where you live. That’s just for a variety of reasons that I feel that way, but I feel that I’ve gained friendships here in my own community that are helpful to me. There other writers. I mean, there are a couple of other writers. Like I mentioned that I will see when I’m networking, but first and foremost, I want to feel like I’m part of my own community, because I do sit at this desk every day in this community.

I don’t want to feel like I’m in a silo when I can be on the moon. I want to feel like I’m part of a community. So that’s one of the things the other thing is, is if you’ve got a niche, I mentioned agriculture. So that’s one of my niches, which happened. Entirely accidentally, but here I am try to find networking groups that fit that niche.

So if you want to get into spa writing and write for various spas that are out there, you’re going to want to see what kind of networking associations they have. If you want to work. Writing about finance, look for a bankers association or a bank marketers association and get involved with those people.

So a lot of it is just. Finding your group, what do you want to do? Where do they hang out? How do you get in with them? Following them on Twitter and interacting with their conversations.

Joel: Alright, you mentioned copywriting a little while back. Why should a business hire a copywriter? And why is copywriting still important?

Ronda: Essential. Traditionally businesses that are created by entrepreneurs are not writers. These are people that are passionate about what they’re doing and they’re passionate about their product or service. They want to see their business grow and thrive, but they’re not writers. So they may have the ideas in their head of how to reach people, but they get so caught up in it that they have a hard time getting that language out.

So. It’s it isn’t that these people can’t right. It’s just that they may not have the writing skills to make the words sound. To you to be able to appeal to that target audience. A lot of businesses, if you just do a random search of websites, go and look at a bunch of websites and see what they say. A lot of it is I, we, us, instead of talking to the customer and talking about what the customer’s pain is and how they solve that.

So that’s one reason why they need copywriters. Another reason is time. So coming from midsize to larger companies, there’s marketing departments. These people are doing writing off the side of their desk. So unless it’s Lulu lemon who has a definitive copywriting team and they know what they’re doing, most companies don’t have that.

So unless they’re Lulu lemon, They aren’t prepared to be able to put out that content and to have it be a fit. So for example, one of my clients is a college. They. Absolutely 100% need to have really good SEO tracks  for their courses.  I go see straight a ton of blogs for them. And it’s about content.

It’s about good content that is meant for eyeballs, not meant for SEO engines. These are valuable articles and that’s what needs to come in order to build their marketing and build their traction. The other thing is, like I mentioned, there’s a marketing department, but. There isn’t just isn’t time. I know this from my own experience.

So when I was a marketing manager in the financial industry, here I am, I’m a writer, but one thing I’m not, I’m not a direct response writer. And at that point in time, we used to do a lot of, long copy letters. Well, Not my forte. Could I have done one? Sure. Did I have time? Oh my gosh. No. So we would have hire specifically a fellow who was a direct response copywriter.

He would do the letters. I would edit them and then they’d go. And it just, it. Isn’t in the time constraints of these people who are trying to do so many different things that are being demanded by their company. The same goes for community papers or any other type of writing in that everybody needs support.

Everybody needs help because in the example of a community paper, community papers, don’t have. A writing team and a photography team and a layout team, all these things that used to exist in the eighties now in your. Editorial team each journalist or reporter has to interview, has to write, has to take the pictures now has to take video, has to be able to upload this stuff to the website, to Facebook, and they have to do the layout of the page for the actual newspaper.

So nobody has time. And that’s, you know, ask anybody, you know, I feel like you have an excess of time at work. I’m pretty sure. No, one’s going to say yes. And so that’s probably the biggest reason why companies still need copywriters. Now I’m going to put out there the most important thing is the fact that writers come with expertise.

We know what we’re doing. We know how to reach their target audience. We know how to speak to them in a way that appeals pills and all those things combined. That’s where the value is. And that’s why were still necessary.

Joel: You mentioned SEO or search engine optimization a couple of times if you’re writing for business or our copywriter, are those learning about SEO?

Is that essential or, or is that something that only you need, if you specialize in that subject

Ronda: essential. No important. Yes. So I would say you do need to know. Even if that isn’t your gig, that isn’t your type of writing. I think that all writers, so I don’t, I don’t write white papers. That’s not my thing. I like case studies. I mentioned earlier, I do articles. I did case studies. I do newsletters. I do need that to know about those other forms of writing so that I can no one, can I help a client when they’re asking for something and they don’t know what it’s called.

Can I help them too. Can I refer that to somebody else? Do I know what that is? And do I know enough that I can refer it to somebody else? Three, if they’re absolutely adamant that they want me to do it, is there a way that I can do it? That works its way into my knowledge base and we can work on it together, the client, and I.

SEO is one of those things that ripples through almost all writing. I mean, let’s face it. If it’s online, there’s an SEO component, right? It’s going to be there. You want to make sure that there are keywords that are relevant within all kinds of writing that go online. So it needs to be there. You need to have an awareness of it.

Am I an expert in it? Oh, heck no. I don’t know of what I need to know about SEO, but I do understand the importance of it. And I do make sure that I work with my clients to talk about their keywords, especially when I’m blogging for them. Less. So in other forms of writing, but when I’m blogging, that is one of my client jobs.

Tell me what keywords we need to use. And you’ve got to know how to work them in there. Again, I’m going to use this phrase so that it’s for eyeballs, not for bots.

Joel: So. Well, let’s, I want to switch to journalism. It’s a subject that is close to my heart. Cause that’s my background. you know, you mentioned community newspapers. Is it still viable to, to become a journalist these days?

Ronda: You know what, Joel, that’s a super duper hard question right now. in, in our COVID era, I don’t know.

I don’t know the answer to that because community papers are really, really struggling. It’s it’s a strange time. And none of us know when this strange time will end, there will always be a requirement for news. There will always be a need for journalists. I just don’t know what that’s going to look like going forward.

I believe that there. Well be ways to be a journalist in the future that allows you to make a living. Being a journalist has never been a rock star paycheck. You’ve got to be doing it because you love it. And you want to community papers, don’t pay a lot. They pay quite little even, the regional papers.

So like the Vancouver Sun. We’re not talking about a high salary. So there has to be a love of the work and the ability to stick with it. It’s it’s tough. It’s hard work. The deadlines are stressed. It’s stressful. You’re just writing about. I don’t know the pet parade that happened on Saturday. I mean, you still have to get it in the paper on a certain time.

So it’s, it’s late news. It’s not heavy news, but you still have a deadline. So as we switch more and more over to electronics and electronic journalism, there are places and opportunities. You are still going to see job postings for these jobs more and more. You’re going to need a degree. Something in place.

I was super lucky in that I don’t, I don’t have a journalism degree, but I learned what I know by doing more and more. You’re going to need that. I don’t know of many papers that run a job posting that don’t ask for a journalism degree or at least a diploma in a journalism program. It’s possible. It’s possible.

And if it’s something you want to do, just stick to it and branch out a little bit, look to other types of papers and publications magazines. One of the areas that people often forget about is trade publications that are specific to a certain group of people. So I I’ve mentioned agriculture a few times because that’s one of the places I write for cultures is a trade, right?

So I write for a lot of trade publications that are specific to people in agriculture. I also write for a publisher. in sort of central Canada that has a ton of trade publications. So I have written about everything from the locks on hotel doors, to chemicals, used to clean restaurants, to ice machines in the bar industry.

Let me tell you it’s interesting, and there are opportunities there that will help you build up your writing skills as a journalist. Yes.

Joel: How do you find those trade magazine opportunities?

Ronda: Ah, okay. Good question. One is to just simply look online, look in, there’s a website called media job, search.ca I think.

I may be wrong in that but look to like those guilds that I mentioned before writer’s Guild say almost all have job posting sites, pages. Look to those, they’re going to have good opportunities there. Go to the BC magazine association, look up magazines that appeal to you, kind of looking what they’re looking for in terms of writers, but I’m just let me grab a, I’m just going to grab a book here off the shelf and it’s, I think it’s going to be an old one because I don’t see my new one.

Oh, Oh gosh. Yeah. It’s 2015. Okay. Well, whatever. Okay. So. These babies are filled with publishers and magazines. There’s a couple of different forms.

Joel: Yes.

Ronda: Yeah, you’re right. There are people who are not seeing us. There are people who are listening to us. So there’s writers, market books out there. Some sometimes they’re called the publishers market.

Sometimes they’re called the magazine market. the one that I’ve got is called the writer’s market. So within here is book publishers, magazine, publishers, all that kind of stuff, and listings upon listings of magazines. So go through book like that. See what appeals to you and find out if. They do accept freelance writers.

There is a number of publications in there that don’t pay or don’t pay a lot, but that are willing to accept new writers. So look to that. The other thing is too, again, in those networking conversations, tell people what you’re looking for. Hey, you know what I’m looking to write for a magazine. about food, you know, do you know anybody look through LinkedIn?

LinkedIn is a huge source of information. So you can, skulk about in the groups, get to know people and just get to know what they’re looking for. There’s lots of opportunities out there. It’s. It’s a bit challenging to find them.

Joel: So once you have, you got the names, you got the contacts, how do you pitch them?

Ronda: The first point is do what they tell you to do follow their instructions to the letter. Don’t, don’t try to be cute by not following their standards because that will get you bumped out immediately. No matter how clever it is. Okay. Consider what they’re looking for. Look at your past issues. You need to make sure, you know, the type of content that they want, then how they accept pitches is the other aspect.

Do they want you to send a formal pitch? Like, do they want you to do an email with just a synopsis of the article that you’re proposing? Do they want an actual letter, like a doc that you’ve created on your computer as an attachment, or do they want you to just send a note and say, Hey, how does a person write for you guys?

It depends. And so you need, that’s why you really need to get a feel for what these people are after find them on Twitter. look at their publication, look at their standards on their website. A lot of them have down at the bottom, something like write for us or. Some, some sort of a link like that where you can find out what the writer’s requirements are.

I was at, a conference a few years ago, attended a workshop. The lady happened to be the editor. And I can never say this word right Ameritas. She was the editor of Meritus. I probably said that wrong. And so I went up to her afterwards and I said, Hey, so how does somebody write for the publication?

And she’s like, I don’t know. Nobody’s ever asked me that she gave me her card. I sent her an email. She forwarded me to the actual managing editor. We spoke. I ended up writing a number of articles for that company. So. Sometimes it is a conversation and being aware, sometimes it’s a formal, formal pitch.

You just got to know what you’re after.

Joel: Alright, thank you. That’s I think that’s a really good information to have if you’re pitching, this is, this is, the last question. and it’s also my favorite and it is what book has. Influenced you the most in your life. And

Ronda: this is where the prop came in. I pulled down before we started, this is my book.

So I am holding up roll dolls, Charlie, and the chocolate factory. And this is my book. So when I was seven, my teacher read us this book. And in those days they would read maybe a chapter, maybe two chapters per year. Sitting, and then you get back to your schoolwork, whatever else you were doing that day. I remember being so immersed in that story.

I hated it when she closed it. It was killing me. I hated it when it ended, when they took off in the area later, because it was over. I just, I just wanted it to go on and on. And I felt like, like I could touch those sugar blades of grass. I felt like I could touch those. It was so immersive for me. And I remember.

At that point being about seven years old thinking, I want to be able to do that. I want to be able to put words out that make people go somewhere else or feel something else or do something else. And

it’s such an incredible feeling to be able to read a book like that. That has that impact on you? I mean, roll doll is he was a master, like, you know, you read Matilda or James and the giant peach and it’s the same experience. You’re just like, Oh my gosh. And you’re feeling things like in Matilda, you are so mad at the people that are.

Pushing that girl down, like her family. You’re like, how are, you know, locked up in jail. But if, if a book can make you feel like that. Yeah. That’s yeah.

Joel: I think that’s a great place to end it, Rhonda. Thank you so much for being on the show. Really appreciate your time. If people want to reach out to you, where can they find you?

Ronda: They can email me at Rhonda dot. I’ve been@shaw.ca. So that’s R O N D a dot E Y B E n@shaw.ca. And I’ve been is every young boy enjoys nature. That’s my maiden name. So email me anytime.

Joel: All right. Thank you so much, Rhonda.

Ronda: Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you for listening to publishing for profits,

Joel: Please like, and subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.