Justin Lam | How To Build Your Brand With the Right Content

Joel Mark Harris: hello Justin, and welcome to the publishing for profit podcast. We’ve got Justin Lamb here who is the owner of three 60 media, and they do a production and branding. Hello, Justin.

Justin Lam: Hey, Joel, how are you?

Joel Mark Harris: Good. How are you? Um, so, um, I will dive right into it, kind of, can you tell us a little bit about your agency and what you guys do?

Justin Lam: Yeah, so three 60 started in, uh, 2001. Um, and we focus primarily at that time, weddings. So weddings was where we first cut our teeth into the industry, working on live events. Um, in 2002, we got the opportunity to move into the corporate space because we had a couple of clients who requested, uh, photographers for their businesses.

Um, since then we’ve grown, uh, both divisions. Um, and then over time we added video photo booths. Um, and then now today we’re into the, uh, strategy and branding portion of what we do. Um, and that’s serving clients to help them find their tribe and keep their tribe, uh, for even fag.

Joel Mark Harris: Cool. So, so you started out, I think, primarily as a photographer.

Can you tell us a little bit what inspired you to do the photography side and the production side and what, what that, why is that interesting to

Justin Lam: you? Well, the honest truth about it is I kind of fell into it. Um, I had a degree in kinesiology at SFU, and I actually had the rehab clinic at the time, three 60 has started.

Um, but I ran into carpal tunnel syndrome and I had to find a way out of it. And photography was never actually really in the picture. At one point, it was somebody suggested it. Uh, I was resistant at the time and they said, you know, who the heck makes a living out of photography? But the more I stood on it, the more I decided to maybe take a look into it and not be judgmental.

Um, and at the time in the yellow pages, if you can remember what that is, but the yellow book, um, there are only about 50, uh, photographers in Vancouver. Uh, and you know, I explored it a little bit further and you know, the words that many who did weddings. And so, um, I decided to make that jump, jump into it and give it a try and see how it would work.

And. You know, much to my surprise at the time, the industry actually did really well for me. Uh, at that point, photography was still voodoo because everyone is still shooting film and everybody prayed to God that the film turned out. Um, and so, you know, we were developing rolls and rolls of film, so it wasn’t necessarily, uh, at that time.

A super viable industry to get into. Um, you do, you did have to know the technicals, uh, and then, you know, pray that, uh, you did a good enough job and you didn’t have everybody Blinky waiting to close. But that all changed when we moved into digital. Um, so again, that was my foray into it. Um. I really love people.

I think that’s the really biggest differentiator for what we do. Um, it’s the ability to connect with people at a very deep level and try to bring out, uh, natural States of emotion. And even today, as we work through a lot of the work, both in the corporate environment, um, and in our wedding division, uh, we really focus on that intimate relationship between us and our clients.

And that. Doesn’t involve us telling them to smile, but instead drawing from their own personal experiences. And, um. Things that are relevant in their world to create that emotion out

Joel Mark Harris: of them. Cool. Where do you see the production industry going? I mean, with, you know, iPhone cameras being so, um, like the four K, so high quality now.

Um, what role do you see yourself playing

Justin Lam: in this. Well, the technology has really changed the landscape. Um, it’s much to the bane of my existence because every time that we keep up with it, it’s a lot of money out the window. But that being said, the barrier to entry for most people is quite low. Um, you know, to get yourself started.

And the technology is so good that you can do quite a bit with it. And so the variance comes in the small intangibles, like learning how to light. And you know, the, the. The ability to connect with a person and draw the best in them. Um, so that being said, I know I get off a lot of flack for this in my community.

I think that photography by its very nature, has become a commodity, less a service. And I think people value it less. Maybe not so much value it less, but, uh, put a, a lower emphasis of the photographer end of things. I think they value images. I mean, that’s why Instagram is so. So popular. And, um, so that’s why tic talk is, is still picking up.

People still love it, but I think the acceptance for the level of quality has decreased. Um, you know, they’re willing to accept a lower. Standard, um, but higher volume model and that, that sort of turns us as a service industry into more of a commodity. Um, you know, unless you’re extremely boutique and you have a real special sauce of boat to where you can command a higher dollar, I think the average is, is, uh, becoming a commodity.

Joel Mark Harris: Cool. Can you walk me through, cause I went through this process, um, but walk us through your onboarding process because I think it’s really unique and, and it’s not something that a lot of other photographers, production agencies actually do.

Justin Lam: Yeah. For us, because we have a, a deep connection with wanting to produce brands.

Um, and because we’re a storytellers by nature. The onboarding process for us is really a comprehensive look at everything. Um, it’s identifying the people that you want to approach. Um, you know, in certain instances, uh, it might, it might involve a deeper look into it, especially if we’re into the strategy portion of it.

Um. But just purely from a photographer standpoint, you know, I want to have a deeper look and understanding of who you’re trying to target, what that looks like, how you use it, where does it get, put it in front of what mediums are they on? Are you designing on top of them? Are they going to be printed in black or white?

Are they gonna be in colour? Are they going to be square, or are they going to be rectangular, um, you know, and the whole nine yards. Uh, and that allows me then to craft a, uh, a visual, um, an aesthetic that will. A jive with the brand and not necessarily impose my own brand and my own biases to it. Um, it’s to really understand and then embody that brand, uh, for the client.

And then for our, our agency portion is much the same. Um, but we dive deeper into that comprehensive sort of, uh, evaluation.

Joel Mark Harris: Cool. Um, so I think photography, production, video production is a part of an overall content marketing strategy that you, um, obviously are very skilled at. Can you, what are some things businesses can do to help with, uh, with a content marketing strategy?

Justin Lam: I think the first thing that companies should really focus on is creating a solid brand. Uh, and that means that you’re understanding not only what you stand for and what you believe in, and you know, how the people in your organization, uh, move that needle. Uh, but then also understanding the type of people that that attracts into your ecosystem.

And if the people that you want to attract and the people that you are attracting aren’t. Uh, the same. Then you need to look at the marketing strategy first before you get into the production and whatnot. Because if you have muddled marketing and you’re not really quite sure what and who you want, and if you’re not attracting those people currently, then that disconnect will translate into whatever medium you’re doing, whether it’s copywriting, the things that you’re doing, um, or in the production and where we’re doing photography for.

Or video for those people.

Joel Mark Harris: What so for brands, if you, if you start with brand, I’ve had clients come say, I don’t really care about brands. What would you say the, you know, they just want sales this once you know, to make money basically. What would you say to those people who don’t think about their brands in a strategic way?

Justin Lam: Well, one of the things that we do do, um, and it’s something that when we did it with you, we didn’t really need to because I think you understand Bradbury well. Um, but, uh, for clients that don’t understand brand, I do have an audit and, um, okay. Survey that they must conduct. Um, and when it gives them context and gives me context of what it is that they, uh, believe in.

And if they’re resistant to that, then they’re not going to be my clients. Because the clients that we have are people who are deeply involved in deeply care about their business. And if they’re caring about the bottom line, only then that likely doesn’t serve us. Because we as a company value relationships over the money.

And you know, if a person is straight after the goods and straight after the sale, the chances are that we don’t align culturally and. I would rather say no than to pick it up, regardless of how good that money is. Because I know that at the end, um, I’m going to end up having to put on what, I don’t know if I’m allowed to Swick swear here, but, but, but I, I tuck on the asshole tax, so to speak.

Um, and, and that’s it. There’s a level of which you’re willing to work at, and then there is a level that you would have to charge above for you to be happy. And. Do it with a smile and want to work with an individual because they, he or she is a Dick face. Um, and so if you’re, if you’re going to be highly resistant in the highly.

Um, uh, combative to the process, um, that, you know, you’ve hired us for and you, you like what our secret sauce and how we’ve done it for other people. Then you’re interrupting what makes us special and how we get that. And if that’s the case, then we’re just going to battle back and forth. And then the end result is nobody’s going to be happy.

And. You know, I’m not going to be happy about what I’ve done for that individual because then I’d feel slimy about doing something where I didn’t believe that their brand was pushing out something that, ah. That they believed in or that I would want to believe in back. Um, and then for their end is that, you know, they’re going to distrust what I’ve said as a brand.

And yeah, that’s never good for any party. And it’s hard sometimes, cause sometimes they do throw a fairly huge chunk of change. Um, but to say no to that takes, uh, takes integrity, uh, and it takes a real afforded to the about it’s, uh, to, to resist the money. Uh, over. Ethics and walls

Joel Mark Harris: for sure. I think too, how I look at it is, you know, you’re, the money is good in those short term, but it’s not good for your brand overall and your company because you’re ultimately not producing the high quality work that you, you want to write and that quality work you can use to attract other clients.

Justin Lam: Yeah. And you think about it though, but that’s the part that’s hard because sometimes it’s not the small people. Cause the small people, like the small business owners are easy to say no to. But when you get like a big shiny object, like, you know, a Rogers or a Samsung or, you know, uh, in our case, a lot of the financial industry people, um, you know, it’s sometimes really hard to say no.

And, and to do that requires an immense amount of integrity. And 42 40.

Joel Mark Harris: Yeah. Can you walk us through some of the questions you, um, you use in your brand

Justin Lam: audit? Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, one of the key questions that we asked is, one of the very first ones is, uh, how do you view your business? Uh, and the reason why we ask that is because, uh, we want to understand from the owner’s perspective what they think their business is.

Uh, and then we follow that up as well. What do they think their employees think about their business? Sometimes that leads them to be, um, up in arms. Because they would want to believe one thing, but then to really want to dig deep and find out means that they’re having to go ask, and that puts them in a vulnerable state.

Um, but that’s that state that you’ll need to be in order for you to grow and to solidify your brand. And then following that, we ask them what their community. Thinks of their brand. And that’s important too, because if he views himself as the product or the Gucci and everybody, I’ve used him as the Walmart, then you have a disconnect.

And so what they’re buying, um, and what, and what you’re selling doesn’t match. And you’re likely having issues with, you know, sales and, or retention. Um, so. Yeah. We look at those three things. First is what do you see yourself? What do the people see you as, and what does the community at large see you as?

Joel Mark Harris: Cool. Do you find that there is a major difference with small businesses as opposed to large? And what I mean by that is I, I would imagine that small businesses, they are, um, their employees, their community knows, um. What’s the, the owner is about and what the, the brand is about. Whereas there can be a lot more, um, disconnect with larger brands.

Justin Lam: Well, I don’t think that large brands or small brands differ all too much except for the layers that are in between them. And so as you’ll live, like, you know, things from the top down on a big companies sometimes get lost in the, in the, uh. Front lines, so to speak. But that happens in small business too.

And sometimes, I mean, a two man team can have high disconnects just as much as a 600 person company. Uh, and that really comes down to the ability for the owners or management to be able to just still something that matches both, but they think what their people think and what the community thinks that large and.

You know, you can see it. Um, when people are just entering an industry, they’re just copying people that they admire. Um, but that doesn’t necessarily jive with their own personal values. Uh, and so the way that they treat people, um, and the way that they interact with their clients are different than the person that they admire.

And they wonder why they can’t cut it. And it’s because they’re not using their own secret sauce. Um, and to try to impose somebody else’s secret sauce in there, but. That secret sauce belongs to the person that you admire. Um, and so they have to find their voice. And that’s why they often struggle, at least in the photography industry.

That’s a, a big, big piece of the pie is, um, it’s, it sort of relates to a posture syndrome where you don’t think that you’re worthy of doing something if you admire that person. So you’ve mimicked absolutely everything. Uh, but there comes a point where you get tired of it and you’re not able to. Do that at scale anymore.

And big businesses are no different. Big businesses. They’ll have their big words and big vision statements up on the board. Um, you know, let’s just say, take for instance, that they care for their people, but if they don’t, if they really care for their people. Um, then the people at the bottom, it doesn’t matter how much money that you’re paying them.

I mean, you know, as long as you’re within your regulated laws, I mean, there, there are other things that are involved with it, but tearing for your people goes above and beyond. Um, just keeping them employed, just making them feel safe, making them feel valued. And there are other intangibles that go along with it.

Um, so if management says that, you know, we care about our people and you know, the company did as well, and upper management get raises, but nobody gets bonuses. But that’s a disconnect. Right? And so, you know, your, your employees might go, well, we had a bang up year last year and you know, management gave himself a bonus, final weekend, anything extra.

And then that’s the disconnect between how your people view you versus how you view yourself. Right. And so, yeah. And it just percolates all the way through. Cool.

Joel Mark Harris: Um, I want to switch topics for a little bit. Um, what do you do for continual learning and where do you get your information from?

Justin Lam: I spent a good amount of time on podcasts.

Um, I look into different industries, not related to my own. I’m looking for parallels and looking for things that might indicate, um. A deeper knowledge and understanding of the world that we live in. And I think that gives me the ability to be a more comprehensive player when it comes to evaluating and trying to create a infrastructure for, for people.

Um, I think one of the people that I love the most is probably Ray Dalio. Um, in that, I think, uh. He has both a very scientific mind and a very creative mind in that sense. Um, and yes, that even though he’s in the financial industry, I mean, he built one of the world’s largest hedge funds. Um, and that doesn’t come easy.

Uh, there, there are thousands of people in the world with similar skill sets, but you know, what, what, what makes him special? Um, and what type of wisdom can, can I extract from, for somebody like that. Um, and then the motivational side of the things more so to keep. Keep you hungry for knowledge. And that’s the Tony Robbins.

Um, that’s the Robin Sharma’s. Um, the Jay Shetty’s, uh, the Gary Vaynerchuk. Um, I think a lot of those people, um, echo some of the sentiments that I’ve held. Uh, and I guess that’s why I resonate with them. It’s because I had those beliefs prior to encountering them. Uh, and some of them provide us or provide me with.

A confirmation of what I’m doing, that it does work in practice. As somebody who’s done it has scaled ahead of me. Um, and if you can do it, if somebody can do it once, it can be done again, so to

Joel Mark Harris: speak. What, you mentioned podcasts, what some of the podcasts are you listening to now?

Justin Lam: Um, I still listened to the gas Gary V show.

Um, I decided out of a whim to start at the very, very beginning, um, and try to listen my way up. I, I’ve gotten, uh, I think to 2017 at this point. Um, so I’m a little bit behind of the Nooner newer stuff, but I’m trying to catch up, so to speak. And, uh, although a lot of it is repeated, it’s, it’s. There’s still really small nuggets that you can glean out of the old stuff that is pertinent today.

Um, I like listened to Kerwin Ray. Um, he’s an Australian. Uh huh. Yeah, I believe he’s in Australia. Um, and then a couple of health ones, which is kind of interesting. My wife kind of turned me on to that. Um, I turned around to podcast and I introduced her, but then she went down the health road of podcasts.

And so, you know, I sneak in one or two every so often, but for the most part, um, those would be the top. Two or three that I would listen to. Cool.

Joel Mark Harris: Uh, you, I know you, you speak about Gary V a lot. Can you tell me a little bit about the impact he’s had on your life?

Justin Lam: Well, I think the reason why I like Gary so much is because a lot of what he says out in public, um, are things that I’ve thought about and, and believe in, um, for, for a long, long time.

And, you know, I try to operate in a very similar fashion.  I think at the time before I, I encountered him, I always questioned whether what I was doing was right, whether serving the people in my organization first and foremost, and, you know, working not as their boss, but, you know, working for them is, is something that I really resonated about it.

Um. And then of course, some of the viewpoints that he has in the world and the digital landscape. I, I firmly believe that the market is the market. Um, and you know, you can do your best to position yourself within that, but at the same time. If somebody is not buying for you, uh, from you, uh, it’s, it’s not the market’s fault.

It’s your own. Um, because they’re probably people, uh, in that same marketplace that are just killing it, and they’ve got that secret sauce, and they know how to push that out there. So, uh, it’s. I like it because he’s real about it. Um, and as you know, uh, from our many dealings, uh, I, I tend to be quite candid with, with that sort of stuff as well.

Um, I really don’t sugarcoat it and I don’t expect people to sugar coat it for me. Uh, which is why I think a lot of the tribal people that I hang out with are probably a lot more blunt. Hmm. And that’s good for all people. I think it saves us energy.

Joel Mark Harris: Yeah, I agree there. Uh, something I’m still working on though.

Um, Gary V I think he, um. One of his teachings is that, you know, try to be as an on many, as many digital platforms as possible. Can you tell us a little bit about your thinking about how to spread your content? How to, um, be like basically everywhere at every time and you have just your thinking around that.

Justin Lam: Well. So Gary’s fee philosophy on that is not just to be on every platform, it’s to be available. Um, and, and that’s a big difference. It’s not just being on the platform, but it’s trying to reduce the friction points of which a person could consume and, or experience your content. Uh, and so by it extrapolation, it means that you’re trying to put it everywhere.

Um, but it’s not necessarily duplicating the same content. Absolutely everywhere. It’s curating that content so that it’s. Fits on the platform that you’re using it on. So you know, whether it’s on Facebook, whether it’s on LinkedIn, um, each one has a different tone of voice, whether it’s a podcast, um, make it easier for your market to consume.

And the reason why that is, is because the TV is no longer the front and center of our attention. And in fact, that’s our front to the center of our attention. Right. Uh, and, and because everything is tied into that phone, uh, we are at a point of our lives where you’re going to have to be on all these different platforms because each person is on there for a different reason.

And. You’re not going to be able to reach the masses traditionally. Uh, and so that just means that you have to roll up the sleeves and be, you know, right in it and distributing your content across all these different platforms. Cool.

Joel Mark Harris: Is there a book or a series of books that have impacted you? And if so, uh, why?

And in what way.

Justin Lam: Oh, okay. So I’m really bad with titles. So those who are listening to it take it with a grain of salt. But I really do love leadership books. Um, one that, uh, in particular was given to us by a mutual friend, Mark, um, is one by Jocko Willink. Um, and that is habit, but it is,

Joel Mark Harris: I know the one you’re talking about the tip of my tongue, I think.

Justin Lam: I know. And I read both of the books. And, and like I said, I’m really, really bad with it. And that’s the other part is, is like, I read a book and I’ll tear through it and I’ll take whatever nuggets of wisdom, but I might not necessarily ever remember where it came from. Um, so yeah, I apologize to everybody, but Junco Willick, um, is, uh.

Mmm. Extreme ownership. That’s the one extreme ownership is one of them. And then he has another one. Um, and again, like I’m going to remember this title halfway through. So if I squirreled, please excuse me. Um, the other one that I really like is principles by Ray Dalio. Um, I have it on audio book. I regret not buying the hardcover, but you know, when’s deputies level running?

I probably will buy the hardcover. Um, other ones that I really enjoy. I actually enjoyed the corporation. I don’t know if you’ve ever read that. That was an interesting one. Um, was it, um, automatic wealth is kind of an interesting one. . And, um, that one feels with the finances and actually just the perpetual habits, um, that we need to make in order to be successful.

So I don’t necessarily take it as automatic wealth and millionaire, like, you know, most people, uh, assume, but I take it for it’s granular value about instilling, um, small, my new changes over a long period of time yields great results. Um, and that’s, that’s the, the, the crux of it. But. Those would be the big ones.

And then all the stuff from Tony Robbins I like listening to, but I don’t necessarily have any of the actual physical books. Yeah.

Joel Mark Harris: I think for me, if there’s one piece of advice that is the most important is that taking those small actions exactly will will yield big results down the line and how, you know you won’t see them.

You know, tomorrow, even a year from now, especially like, you know, in my industry, in SEO, um, those small steps, you will not necessarily see them soon, but you know, come five years from now, you’ll be glad that you did them.

Justin Lam: Yeah. And I think people don’t understand the value of copywriting and the value of doing SEO work.

You know, at one point SCO was really quick to rise into the ranks of things, but Google and amongst all the other search engines, they changed those algorithms so frequently that trying to keep up with them and staying on top is really difficult. Portion of it. But what people forget is that the content that you put out now, um, it’s supposed to be evergreen.

It’s, it’s allowing you to be indexed better and more robustly over a period of time. And, you know, as you said, it’s not about being, um, uh. It’s not about being immediate, but it is about being  everywhere at, you know, at, at a given time point, and you’re gonna, you’re going to value what that happens. What happens at that point?

It’s, you’re going to have money coming in the door and you’re not going to understand why that happened because you’ll just, you know, liken it to the latest and greatest thing that you’ve been doing. But it actually probably wasn’t. It’s probably the stuff that you did three years ago that is finally coming to fruition.

Yeah. I think people are. Or not valuing that now they used to.

Joel Mark Harris: How do you, uh, going back, how do you practice extreme ownership in your life and in your business?

Justin Lam: Uh, everything that we do in the business is, uh, to be accountable for ourselves. And I’ve instilled that from top down. Um, you know, in, in our organization, it’s, uh, if a person messes up and we have mess ups, I mean, every business does.

And if you say you don’t, then you’re, you’re either, uh, very unconnected to your business or you’re just straight up lying. But we practice ownership in that. I tried to make it a safe place for our team to do, make and grow. Um, and, and all that comes with having mistakes and some costs a pretty penny. Um, you know, at the end of the day, it means that I didn’t either provide them enough context or I didn’t do my part in it, and it’s.

When you own it that way, you make it safe for them to explore and be, um, able to voice their needs from an organization standpoint and say that, Hey, I’m not being supported enough to make a proper decision or to conduct my work properly. Whereas if you’re barking at them all the time, you’re not taking ownership because you’re pushing that off.

You’re, you’re not owning that. You’re not providing enough context and you’re just frustrated because they can’t do everything like you do and nobody does. Um, know that’s because you are, you and your decisions and your experiences all make that up. So when leaders are barking commands and they’re expecting everybody to critically think, you can’t have both.

Um, it’ll critically think of the fucking command if you’re blocking commands and they’re just having to follow them. Um, and then it’s like every other muscle, if you don’t use it, you lose it. So if you want them to critically think, you have to give them that space to critically think. And we do that the same with our daughter.

Um, and that’s extreme ownership. It’s when you tell her something and you own up to it, um, and, and she catches you. I mean, kids are smart, like they, like mine is like a little lawyer and she’ll catch the, the little. Little differences in words. Um, and, and she’ll use it against you. And rather than yelling back, like most parents do, we acknowledge that she’s caught us in, in, uh, in the, uh, the, when they get the catch 22.

Um, and we let her win the argument. And that empowers her to critically think, and, you know, not be a robot about things, which means that. As she’s growing up, she can make better decisions and I can trust that she makes those decisions based on critical thinking and logic and not just, you know, Willy nilly.

So you’ll watch my child at the age of four, you know, using an extremely sharp knife to cut vegetables instead of the safety knives, because I know that she’s made critical thinking, um, you know, decisions on to put the knife down in a safe spot and then do something versus like. Another child who has mum and dad watching over them all the time, but safety scissors or safety, NYSE, um, and, and not letting them critically think and explore.

Joel Mark Harris: Cool. I think, yeah, that’s one of the things that I’m, I’m very passionate about is, um, teaching entrepreneurs skills to young people. Because I think what you just said is super important. You know, the critical thinking logic. Are there any other skills from your journey through entrepreneurship that you would like to teach her or are teaching her?

Justin Lam: Mmm, empathy and compassion? Um, aye. As much as a hard ass as I am. And you know, this, um, you know, from, from our role as leadership on, on our BNI chapter, but my stance on it is, uh. I believe that giving the people the framing context to do their work, um, and then letting them push those boundaries allows things to be creative, uh, and allows for solutions that I wouldn’t necessarily think of, um, to come to light in a, in an environment.

And so much the same is, I will do the same with bell. Um, my little one. And she, I’ll lay out the context and the structure of which she is able to operate in. Um, whether that’s, she has to be confined to a specific space for a certain reason. We outlay all of the rules and regulations around it, and then I let her be, and I watch and I don’t, I don’t hover over her, but I let her ask me questions.

And that’s being open to teaching. Um, and so we, we translate that here at the studio. It’s, I’ll give them framework on what it is that w. That needs to happen, the end result. Um, but I let them do the calculus equation to get to that result. Um, and then I asked them why they chose that. Um, and, and that’s part of being accountable.

It’s if they’re doing it and they can’t give me a real reason why they’ve done it or they can’t back that up, then I need them to reevaluate that. And that allows them to be critical thinkers and to know that. Somebody at the other end isn’t just going to take it for face value. Cool.

Joel Mark Harris: So, um, I want to talk about something topical right now.

Right now we are in the middle of a covert 19 crisis, pandemic, whatever you want to call it,

Justin Lam: what

Joel Mark Harris: you know, I think. You have a very strong business mindset, what would you tell other businesses who have to either, you know, you know, drastically shrink their business or close down? How, what would you tell them to get through this time?

Justin Lam: Oh, so there’s so many variables to that. So I’m just going to pick one particular avatar, and that’s a budding and starting business. Uh, and anybody who’s maybe seasoned can take it with a grain of salt or, you know, extrapolate from this. But there is no shame in you having to close things down. And I think if people, a lot of people feel that shame, um.

And, or feel like they’re not serving their people because they have to close their doors or they have to lay them off. Um,  and the honest truth is, is you are trying to protect those people. And if you look at the flip side, by doing that, you’re trying to live to fight another day. Um, and, and in this case it’s hard because we don’t know when the other day will be.

And so. If it was, if it’s only a month and you had a definitive timeline, but yeah, I think a lot of people would just try to keep the doors open and just kind of hunker down. Maybe not spend as frivolously as possible as they would normally, but for a timeline where we don’t know when that’s going to happen, you know, some people don’t have more than a month’s worth of.

Of w a war chest to to bank. And then when the revenue completely drives up, it’s not even a trickle. It’s not an a lolly. The industry like they were in 2010 to 2009 it’s a straight out stop for a lot of industries and, and that’s detrimental to cash flow. So. By being open and honest to yourself about what, what you need to do to live and fight another day, uh, doesn’t just serve yourself.

It serves the people who are going to be there besides you to live and fight another day. Because if you. Attracted them in the first place, and they still feel like you care and you’re in their corner, they’re going to come back. Um, you know, it’s just a matter of time. And, you know, uh, the other thing is, is don’t be afraid that, um.

You might have to go get a job to support and bring and resuscitate your, uh, on life support business. Uh, because there’s no shame in that either. I think a lot of people feel like once they’ve put on the entrepreneur hat going into getting a job is, uh, it’s a knock on their pride, uh, but they shouldn’t look at it like that.

It’s, again, it’s, it’s living to fight another day. And if you are an entrepreneur by new year nature, um. You know, you’re going to find a way to, to come back. Um, and, and the greats in history have all done that if they’ve gone from zero to hero and backup, uh, and the back down, over and over again. Um, but the, the techniques and the willpower and the drive don’t change.

So I think that would be the, the one thing I would maybe advise people, um, at this time. Cool.

Joel Mark Harris: Yeah. I think for me, and I think for like, like a lot of other businesses, as you mentioned, it’s not knowing, right? It’s not knowing whether we’re going to be in this for, you know, a month, two months, three months, whatever.

Um, so I, I know it’s, you know, especially for businesses who like to plan into, um, project their quarterly earnings, it’s definitely very difficult.

Justin Lam: Should.

Joel Mark Harris: Should businesses keep marketing and how should they market if so, during this time?

Justin Lam: Yeah, absolutely. Marketing is super important. It doesn’t matter when or where.

Um, I mean you can spend money or you can do it yourself and if there’s no money to spend than do it yourself, don’t be lazy about it. This is the time to learn. Um, as an entrepreneur, you already have the first idea of how to market cause that’s how you got your first set of customers. They just have to do it over and over again on different platforms and whatever was successful for you once it will be successful for you in an, in another platform, you just have to figure out how that platform works and how to spin that same sort of secret sauce.

Um. Because the message and the brand name, if done right, should should last you for quite, quite some time. Um, it’s when they have to disconnect that you go to rebrand and then you try new things. But if you knew how to sell it the first time to a person on the streets or your best friend, and you grew your business and you’re, and you’re at a point where you’re generating revenue, then the chances are you know how to do it.

And you just have to learn the quirks of each platform and how the people on that platform operate.

Joel Mark Harris: What are some of the things that you are doing to market right now?

Justin Lam: So I have a podcast. The podcast is part marketing, part trial and error. It’s allowing us to understand how people consume podcasts, uh, how to distribute them.

Um, but it also is allowing us to create perpetual content that is, uh, index will, will be indexable. It currently isn’t fully indexable, um, uh, via Alexa and or echo. But. Um, I think down the road that that’s going to be a big thing where they’re going to be able to index contents. Um, you know, because AI is getting so good, um, that they’re going to be able to transcribe those, uh, bits and pieces of audio.

And so they’re going to start picking up things like, you know, talking about. Let’s say remote work, and you know, I’ll have a video and a podcast about that. And so Alexa is going to pick up on that and I’m going to float to the top versus somebody who might have deeper knowledge, but not necessarily have done any marketing in that sense.

And the other part is to be front and center on social media platforms. And that’s brand awareness and establishing credibility. Um, it’s putting it in front of as many people as possible and trying to . To find your tribe. And that’s, that’s the difference. A lot of people feel like it’s should be a sell, and it’s really a reach tool.

It’s just to take the hundreds of thousands of people that’ll get put in front of and curing down to your top thousand raving fans. And so as you saw in January, prior to this really becoming a big thing, um, you know, we had ads everywhere and it was for brand awareness and people would go, well, yeah, you’re, you’re starting to prop up everywhere on my feet.

And that’s what I want. I want you to remember and see the colors. I want you to see the logo. And I wanted them blazoned in your head. Uh, and you know, the people who click through is being curated through, I mean, the proverbial funnel, but it’s. Learning to find my tribe and those people who resonate with what’s on our website and what we’re producing and what we’re doing for other people.

Um, you know, of those hundred thousand people, uh, you know, 10 20 of them weren’t going to go and click through and say, Hey, you know, I want to be part of this drive. And that’s what you really want, is you want the tribe of people who are going to be with you thick and thin.

Joel Mark Harris: Okay. Would you. Rec. I, I feel like there’s definitely two types of advertising out there.

There’s the people who are just, um, ignoring the whole crisis, the whole pandemic, and they’re just using their same marketing messages that they use before. And often I feel like they’re not working. Um, would you change your message or would you continue with the same marketing messages you used before Kobe 19.

Justin Lam: There’s a different way to look at it. If you think about it this way, I own, and I guess it depends on the industry that you’re in and what you’re pandering. Okay. Um, you can change the message slightly to be more empathetic, but if you’re selling a product that you think is useful to other people, you have to remember it’s still a statistics game.

Right? Um, it’s, you know, you have to put it in front of enough people for them to want to purchase it. And that just means that you still have to do the same abruptly advertising the messages the same, but the entry point, the way that you do it, the soft skill to get into that person’s head is different.

Okay. So the message is the same. Uh, it’s still buy my product, but it’s rather than saying, Hey, like. Like you have an abundance of money. I know you do like buy my product. It’s like, Hey, I know times are tough, but have you ever considered that this could be a solution for the longterm? And I’m not asking you to buy it now, but I’m asking you to maybe consider it for when times are better.

Um, and you’re farming it and you are technically supposed to be farming rather than trying to hit them with direct sales. I think that nowadays people are very. Immune or very put off by like in your face, buy my shit. Uh, kind of sales. Uh, and so it’s still buy my product. But can you find a softer way to enter that conversation?

It’s being human instead of being that sleazy used car salesman with a polyester and polka dots suit.

Joel Mark Harris: So would you. Still recommend, if you can, to do like Google advertising, do Facebook advertising, spend money on social media.

Justin Lam: Again, another variable. It depends on your financial runway. Um, and it depends on the type of product or service that you are doing.

Um. I think that there should be multiple prong approaches. Um, if you have the budget, then putting out ads, um, you know, specifically targeting, targeting, uh, unique demographics that may not be affected as much by open 19. So things like, um. You know, there’s, there’s funding for construction here, but I’m not sure where it is in the other parts of the world.

But let’s just say right now, medical is still a viable industry. Uh, some consultants are, are viable digital marketing agencies. Semi viable, um, you know, frontline workers like versus and stuff, they’re still bringing in revenue. Um, you know, and those people, you can target still, you know, you can target the ultra wealthy who still have an abundance of money, um, you know, with ad words and whatnot.

I think you just have to be strategic in what you’re doing. Uh, the other part of that approach is then doing the long term stuff and that is doing, um. Stuff that’s related to, um, hold on. That last year, uh, that’s related to longterm keywording. Uh, that’s, um, SEO blog work. Uh. Doing things that are relatively free, like podcasts, YouTube videos, um, where the barrier to entry is like your phone and an internet connection.

Um, and that’s just practicing your messaging. So the, there’s two problems approach rather than all paid or, or whatnot. It just depends. If you have the financial runway, get in front of the people now because the cost per clicks is going to go down because. You know, people aren’t dumping as much money in.

And so you could take advantage of the discounted sales, so to speak, just like you would in the stock market. Um, and, and ride that until it comes back up to par. And you’ll still, you’ll likely not be any worse off than if you, you waited. Um, but. I think right now focus on the longterm keywords is a really big, important part.

Joel Mark Harris: Cool. All right, Justin, we’ll cap it off there. Thank you so much for being on the show. Where can our listeners find you?

Justin Lam: Well, I’m everywhere, as you can imagine. You can find us on YouTube, Spotify, LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. So you look up three 16 media for pretty much all of those. You know, I’m most active probably on Instagram, and that’s at three 60 photo.

Uh, unfortunately, I wasn’t smart enough when I was first starting out to buy Instagram at  media. Uh, I bought photo. Um, and you have to spell it all though, and that’s another, that’s another business mistake. But for a Holy blood test.

Joel Mark Harris: And what is your podcast called?

Justin Lam: Digging deep so you can find on Spotify, but you can look up her name at three 60 media on Spotify and you’ll find that there.

Cool.

Joel Mark Harris: Thank you so much, Justin, and it’s been great having you.