Joel Mark Harris | Why Hire A Ghostwriter

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And now your host, Joel Mark Harris.

Hello, and welcome to the publishing for profit podcast. This is your host, Joel, Mark Harris, and we are doing something a little different today. I have my good friend, Justin Lam here, who is actually going to be asking me some questions instead. Justin Lamb is an amazing photographer. Brand expert and entrepreneur and somebody I look up to, for pretty much everything.

So if I have a question, I ask him and he always has the answer. we did this, in reverse. I guess a couple of days ago, and I was able to ask him some questions. I was unable to stump him. So let’s see if he is able to stump me today. Justin, how are you doing today? I’m good. How are you? Good. Good.

So fire away. Do your worst.

Justin: Awesome. Well, I think we’re going to start you off. Nice and easy. one of my first questions is, is, What does a thought leader need to do in order to want to publish a book in the first place?

Joel: So I think let’s start with, like, why do you want to be a thought leader in your field?

And the answer to that is, is it enables you to distinguish yourself from your competition. I think that’s super important in today’s world because, You know, you’re not just competing with like Joe Blow down the block for your business. You’re actually competing worldwide, especially with COVID now everyone is online.

And so when you’re looking for anything, you know, like you’re looking for a photographer, for example, you are competing with so many different people who have cameras with technology these days, right? It makes it really easy just to call yourself a photographer. So you need to figure out what makes you different.

What makes you able to stand out? And the answer is to become a thought leader in your field. So look, become an expert. you know, that can look, you know, many different ways. It could be, you know, like for, you know, taking the photography example. Again, it can be, you know, You know, what sort of lighting should you use for weddings for portraits for headshots?

How should you dress if you want to present some sort of image and give your, your, Your intended audience, alike some information. And then when they see you as somebody, as an expert, then you become a thought leader. And one reason you can put that into a book is because it’s a good calling card.

For, you know, for a business person, it’s something unique. You know, everyone has like, you know, a website, right? Everybody has some, like a blog. everybody has a card that they give out, but. Not everybody has a book. And once you have that book then you are able to use it in different ways.

Sabina’s, you can give it out as a, like a loss leader. For example, you can give it as a lead magnet. You could sell it on Amazon. And when you say you’re a published author, then you’re able to, people look at you differently. They’re like, Oh, this guy has. Enough information, they know enough about a subject to be able to put it into a book, and then you’re able to, you know, even able to distinguish yourself from your competition, your bill, you’re able to charge more. You’re able to work with the people that you want to work with. I think that’s super important in today’s world.

Justin: And so is it better that I write it or find a ghostwriter?

Joel: I think it depends. there’s no right answer for this. I think that a lot of entrepreneurs are busy. They, you know, they’re running their business, they’re selling to their clients. If it’s not in their core skill sets. Then I think that’s when you go and hire somebody to write it for you or to help you. Right. if this is something that you truly enjoy, that you think that you can add value for, then I would go, I would tell you, go ahead. Right at yourself or at least try/ I would encourage you at least to try and do it yourself.

See if it’s something that you enjoyed doing, but if it’s just going to be painful, if it’s something that you’re going to hate, I would say, you know, get a ghostwriter to, to help you out and guide you through the process because they’re the experts they’ve done it before. you know, they will do it much quicker, much faster, and oftentimes better than you can do it yourself.

You can focus on your own business on running your business, on selling to your clients and the day-to-day operations, because let’s face it. Everybody’s busy and you really need to be. Focused on your core skillset.

Justin: And so I think a fear many people will have when they’re looking to create their own book is.

When you hire somebody externally and this happens more often in the blog space or social media, there’s a disconnect between the voice of an individual and you know, their writing style or their persuasion style. How does, how does that get bridged when you’re deploying a ghostwriter?

Joel: It’s a good question because yeah. A book is very personal, right? You’re basically taking your heart and you’re putting it on the page. You’re putting everything into this piece of work. And so you really need to find somebody who gets you right. And. The only way you can do that is through multiple interviews.

Like, you know, Justin, like we’re going through this process right now. Right. It, it’s not something that, you know, I can just do with one interview and I can say, okay, done. I know exactly what you mean. I know exactly what tone, I should be using. It’s really getting well acquainted with your tests, with your subjects, with, with the author and.

Figuring out, you know, and asking them questions. Well, what do you mean by this? Or, or how do you think about this? And oftentimes, it’s not. It’s listening more for the way that they present their subject matter rather than the actual facts itself. It’s a very difficult skill to learn and not everybody can do it.

That’s why not every writer should be a ghostwriter.  It’s really tricky to be able to write in somebody else’s tone. I think the other thing too, that you should be aware of is what sort of authors does that person does the entrepreneur want to emulate? You know, do they like the Tony Robbins kind of style?

Do you like the Donald Trump kind of style of writing? Authors they are they like and what they want to emulate that can really help with your style. If, if the person has written their own, you know, blog posts their own writing. If they’ve started the book that can also be a really great place to start and to really capture their style.

Also, talk about this openly. With, you know, with the author, and figure out, okay, like what tone do you want to use? what’s what do you want to capture in this writing and that, and when you can have an open conversation about it, that really helps and is able to, that enables the ghostwriter to capture the style that they want.

Justin: So here’s an interesting question and I’ve, I’ve seen different people in this arena, and I want to know what your thoughts are about it, but there are some people who can come up with a topic, but doesn’t write anything about it. And they try to leave it to the ghostwriter to go and research and write what’s the advantages or disadvantages of going that route versus a person who has their own intellectual property. And it’s, you know, talking to you about that.

Joel: I think it’s, this is actually something that you have. You know, you’ve taught me, Justin is really setting that expectation. I think that if you leave it, you know, I’ve, I’ve written books where the author was just like, go write about this. They’re completely happy with the end product.

Right. but I mean, in the end, it’s not really their voice. I think that is used for more of like a lead magnet. and I think that the authors who are really put their heart and soul, they spend their time with the ghostwriter. That’s when you get the magic. And that’s when you get the unique perspective, of the, of the individual, right?

Because I think that is when the authors to authority to thought leadership really shines through, those books are generally, they’re the ones that are going to make the bestseller list. Right. They’re the ones that are going to sell really well because they have, they have that. Yeah, like that extra special magic.

It’s really that, that point of view, that is, that will get them to the next level. so I think, you know, if possible, you know, make sure that you figure out what’s what kind of book you’re writing, both for the ghostwriter and for the author. Okay. If it’s just for, you know, some like downloadable PDF that they want to throw up on the website to get somebody to, to click and opt in to their email, then that’s when the ghostwriter can go off and research the topic at this rate and has a little bit more free, free reign if you will, over the actual book.

But it’s not going to be something that’s, you know, That they’re, they’re going to pass on to their friends. It’s not something that’s necessarily going to be gifted at Christmas or for a birthday present. It’s when you work with the goat with the author and the ghostwriter, when they collaborate together when they sit down and do the work together, that’s when you get something special, that’s when the true magic happens.

Justin: So when I’m writing a book, this. Is a co-authoring a book with a ghostwriter tend to stay in the nonfictional genre or do you, can you go straight fantasy and sci-fi, books as well?

Joel: You can do whatever you want. Basically, you can, you know, I’ve co-written a sci-fi before. and that was a really interesting process. Generally, it is non-fiction, But it doesn’t have to be. I think it really depends on what you want the end product to look like and who’s writing it and what their goals are. Right. So if it’s just for fun if they just want something. That will, you know, kind of entertain them, that they, you know, they can kind of throw some ideas together and get the ghostwriter to, kind of Polish off or to finish and then put out into the world.

Then I think that’s fantastic, but more often than not, it is, somebody who’s looking to make an impact. And that is generally non-fiction. That’s a self-help book. That’s a business book. Maybe it’s a memoir. and that is when you are able to kind of reach that broader audience. So I think it really depends on the person and the personality and what they’re trying to achieve event.

Justin: So all books have to go to the main publisher. Do you have to commit to finding a publisher before you connect with a ghostwriter or can you self publish? What did the pros and cons of both?

Joel: I think it really depends on your end goal. Mainly when people come to me, they don’t really know what they, you know, they don’t really know the difference between self-publishing and publishing traditionally.

That said, there’s definitely that education piece that goes into it.  I’d say 90% of the time I, tell them that they should self-publish and there’s several reasons for that. Generally, you can make a bigger impact if you self publish it’s way easier to self publish than it is traditionally published.

And you actually, especially if you have if you’re an entrepreneur and you already have that, you know, a following then. You can actually leverage that following to sell more books and make more money, which is great. The only reason I would say you want to go the traditional route is that if you want to become a New York Times bestseller and there’s definitely some pros and cons to becoming a New York Times bestseller USA Today, bestseller or whatever, And, but, you know, it’s definitely a vanity piece that I think having, again, having that conversation upfront is, is very beneficial.

The traditionally published route takes way longer. I think that’s like a huge difference. It generally takes between two to three years to, from, I guess, concept creation to, it takes me to be like a year to finish the book. And then, you know, maybe another one to two years to find the right agents and then find a publisher.

And so a lot can happen in those three years. Right. and there’s really not that many. You know, benefits to sell, sorry to traditionally publish a book. Unless you’re Stephen King or a Malcolm Gladwell, they’re not going to put, you know, a publishing house is not going to put thousands of marketing dollars.

They’re not going to create an ad campaign for you. They’re not going to create billboards for you. They will help you leverage your audience. But they’re not, you know, that’s pretty much the extent of what they’re going to do for you. If you know how to do that already, you have a little bit of a marketing prowess or a marketing background, then again, that self-publishing route is I think really beneficial because you can really, you know, again, leverage that audience and, and sell a book yourself.

The other thing I think too, that is important to note is with traditional publishing you, once you sign over that, those rights, you pretty much have to dust your hands off the project because you have no control over what happens to your book. you can negotiate movie rights or foreign rights if you want.

But a lot of the time, you know, the publisher keeps those with self-publishing. You’re able to keep those rights. you’re able to, use your, you can find interesting in new ways to, To promote it. You can do a Christmas discount if you want. If you want to put your ebook at, you know, 99 cents for like five days, for like a boxing day sale, for example, you can do that.

If you’re a self-publisher, if you’ve signed over the rights searches publisher, then you can’t, you know, this, the price that is set is the price is set. There’s nothing you can do about it. So I think, you know, as we move forward, you’ll see more people going the self-publishing route because of the, you know, you’re, you’re able to be more flexible with, especially with the marketing, James Clear who wrote Atomic Habits.

I think he, I think he self-published, but, he has a very interesting way of promoting his book. Right. so. You know, if you buy your book in on a certain timeframe, he did like this promotion, you get extra chapters with it, or you get a [00:17:00] discount, which is kind of like a, it’s a pretty cool way of, enticing people to buy the book. And again, with traditional publishing you’re unable to do that. You basically have to do what the publishing house tells you.

Justin: Interesting. So when we’re talking about self-publishing, does that mean that you just published online or are you still making physical books?

Joel: You can do both, more people are, you know, I’d say about 80% of our market right now is eBooks. The other interesting thing, which I didn’t mention is of course audio. Audio is becoming increasingly huge. And again, if you do a, If you publish shoot, traditionally, you generally have to give up those audio rights. Whereas with self-publishing, you can, you can again create a new revenue stream through doing audio.

And I, again, I mean, there’s a lot of like this extra cost to that. Cause you have to bear the brunt of hiring the actors or the person to read the book. If you don’t want to read it yourself, you have to upload it to audible. but sorry, what was, what was the question again? I lost my train of thought.

Justin: So do you have to, traditionally for self-publishing, are you publishing digitally only or do you make, you know, a hard copy book and how does that process go? Is there a major difference between one and the other.

Joel: Yeah. So if you publish through Amazon that you can do both an ebook and a, and a soft copy.

You can’t. If you have to do, if you want to do a hard copy, like a hardback cover, you know, with like the nice thick, spine and cover, you have to go through Ingram sparks. But again, those aren’t huge, huge sellers these days. So it’s, it’s really easy just to do a softcover of your book. You just need to format it a little bit differently from the ebook.

It’s kind of nice to have that softcover, which you can sell at events or a handout to people, which is great. You just need to design the cover and you’re pretty much off to the races.

Justin: Why is there a difference between softcover and hardcover?

Joel:  It’s just, I guess it’s a little bit of vanity, I think too, again, is like having that nice, hard coffee, hardback, cover. It lasts a little bit longer than the softcover. There again, you know, hard copy, like it used to be back in the day that, publishers would put first publish a hardback cover. And that was for like the real, like for the people really wanted the book and, you know, you’d spend maybe 40, 50 bucks on our hard, hardback cover.

Then once that run was, was finished, then they would publish a softback cover. And that was, and then that price point ran, you know, probably between. Like 15 and $20 on average. but that model has again, you know, through Amazon has kind of gone, You know, though, by the wayside. And, you know, it’s kind of a little bit of a wild, wild West situation where you can publish the softcover.

You can publish the hardcover. You can publish the ebook, cover all at the same time. And basically, the consumer has the, you know, has the option to choose whatever they want. I think, you know, unless, you know, you’re a dear friend, you really want to support the author. Like people are going to go for the cheaper option, which is either the ebook or the softback cover.

Justin: And so when you’re publishing a book and you say you want to tap into the audiobook version of things, you know, how is that different? I mean, are you, is that a totally different platform at that point? you know, a totally different Avenue of, of work, that, that needs to happen.

Joel: Yeah. So that’s another platform altogether. There is the supplier and there are several options out there. There is the Amazon option, but you know, it’s, it’s, you know if you want to do it yourself right. You have to make sure that you’re actually a good speaker first of off and that you’re the right person to read your book. Oftentimes that’s not you, right?

So if that’s the case, you actually have to hire an, like a voiceover artist or some sort of actor to read the book and they need, you know, you need that, but get, good quality, voice. First off you need the software, you need a good mic, right? so it’s definitely a different type of, yeah, I guess, a different type of revenue stream for you.

And, it’s like, it’s, it’s like a whole new, I guess addition almost like, it’s kind of like if you’re, if you’re have a book it’s, it’s more akin to, to, making that book a movie rather than like a hardback or softback, sort of situation. So you, you almost need to go back to the drawing board and start.

You know, kind of from scratch and figure out, you know, are you going to make enough money through audio sales to make it even worth it? Right. and then how you know how to do that and doing that whole process is like, is another step altogether.

Justin: So when you’re onboarding a client for. Ghostwriting then what are some key things that a person should be asking a ghostwriter when they start to engage in them?

Joel: Good question. So experience is a good one. What I’m looking for sample writings as well. What sort of genre they’ve written in before? If they are an expert in a certain field, you know, if you, if you’re writing something a little bit technical, like, or if, if you’re looking for a specific voice, making sure that that person can actually accomplish that is important.

you know, making sure that. The personalities are compatible is also super important because you’re going to be spending a lot of time together. I think there has to be a level of trust as well. So making sure that that person is, is able to complete the work is able to complete it on time.

Obviously, money is a big issue that you have to sort out. and then just making sure that it’s a good fit, I think as well. so yeah, I think those, those are sort of the main, the main points you have to. Touch on, when you’re looking at whether that person is right for you.

Justin: What kind of person would expect in terms of a timeline for completion? Are they, you know, for, for starting a project, are you talking like one month, one year, six months? Well, what is a good starting point to, to, to at least set your baseline, your framework? Obviously, every book changes depending on the content, but. Is it wrong to expect that it goes right? Just going to turn it around in a month.

Joel: Yes. So I think a good timeframe is about seven to eight months. And again, like you said, it really depends on like, if you have a first draft already, then, of course, it’s going to be a lot quicker. but if you just have an outline, obviously that takes, you know, a lot longer, You know, obviously you length the book again, if you’re just looking for like a lead magnet, something that’s, you know, quick, quick and dirty, then you know, that can be completed probably in about three months.

If you’re looking for something around 30,000 words, then I’d say, yeah, a couple of months is a good timeframe. I think too, it like, it really depends on what you’re trying to accomplish. Right. I think if, if you’re really trying to get a good book that is able to reach a mass audience, you want to take your time, you don’t want to rush it. And that’s, I would say you probably, you’re probably looking for about a year, a year process for that.

Justin: And, you know, it just popped in my head when we talked about when you’re self-publishing and you get a soft copy or a digital copy. For the soft copy. You’re still sending it to a printer on your own?

Joel: The good thing about this is that Amazon will actually take care of everything for you. And this is why Amazon publishing has been so popular, you know, the last 10 years is because, You know, Justin Lamb orders Joel’s book, I don’t actually see that book. So Justin will, hits, you know, pay, it will go through, one of Amazon fulfillment center.

They’ll actually print it for you. And they’ll ship it directly to you. So I don’t see anything. I don’t actually have to do anything, which is really nice. It’s a nice seamless process. And this is again, like one of the reasons why Amazon is so hugely successful is because they’ve figured that out.

Justin: Oh, wow. So I don’t actually have to pre-buy inventory.

Joel: Yeah, no, it’s, I’ve, I’ve made the mistake of, of pre-buy pre-buying thousands of my copies of my books and then unable to sell them, before. The good thing about that is that yes, he does. You don’t need to. kind of pedal, I don’t, you know, you hear stories about, you know, famous office before they became rich and famous, they would buy truckloads of the book and they would try and sell it at the side of the road.

You don’t have to do that anymore, which is really great. There are no upfront costs to you for self-publishing. The only thing is if you want to, you should get a professional editor and a professional cover designer so those are the only two, real hard, those prices.

Justin: The cost to you is the editing and then the cover design. So isn’t the editing part of your job as a ghostwriter though?

Joel: Yes, it is. I’ve got several, contractors I use because I really believe that editing is you can’t self edit, or it’s really hard to, and you need a fresh set of eyes when you’re ghostwriting.

You’re really into the story. You’ve probably spent, you know, quite a lot of time with the actual author, the person you’re writing the. The story for, and you are going to be this, you know, you’re going to miss something. You’re not going to be able to, you’re not going to have that fresh set of eyes that here, that global picture, if you will, of the story.

And so that’s why an editor. It’s super important. And, that’s why I contract, you know, several different editors out because they’re able to come at it with a fresh perspective, a fresh set of eyes and see what’s missing and see where the gaps are in the story. Maybe it’s logical gaps.  Maybe it is just like a flow issue.

Maybe it’s just like spelling. you know, but there, you know, that that extra set of eyes is super valuable and it just, it prevents any mistakes from happening and it prevents, anything that is, that you don’t want, not, not being able to put that best. you know, the best book out there, which is ultimately the goal is to make sure that your book is, is as best as it can be.

Justin: what about titles? Is that the responsibility of the author or is that the ghostwriter or how do you, how do you make sure that you had a good title?

Joel:  Yes, that’s a very good question. I think, it’s generally the, it depends sometimes, authors have come to me with, with titles and I’m like, eh, no, I don’t, you know, I, as I was editing this book, And the, I think the title was Alex or something and it was a mystery thriller book and it sounded like a biography.

And I was like, if you, your title has to sound like it’s. Part of the genre, because you have to think about the reader’s expectations, right? When they pick up a book, there are some expectations, inherited, built into, into when they start the first page. We did some brainstorming back and forth, and we came up with a title that worked for the genre and they were super happy with a lot of the time.

I do leave it up to the author to come up with at least the initial title. Because titles, obviously, as you know, are super important. It’s also very personal. Right. And it’s a very personal decision. So generally it’s something that the author comes up with. I, I sometimes will try and nudge them into a certain direction depending on, on what, you know, kind of yeah.

On my expertise, I suppose. but you know, I don’t think there’s ever been a time when I’ve had. I’ve just come up with the title and they’ve gone with it. It’s definitely a collaborative process or something that they’ve come up and they’ve had, even before they engage me. Hm.

Justin: And then, so for the design of the cover and stuff like that, is that something that they could rely on you to outsource for them or do they have to find that themselves?

Joel: Generally I have, again, several contractors that I use that are super amazing. to design the cover. And again, there’s, there’s definitely some, you know, reader’s expectations, you know, like a suspense thriller will, the cover will look a certain way. A biography will almost always have the person’s, picture on the front.

We worked together, to come up with a good cover, covers are super important as you know, to make sure that you have to think about the marketing and there’s a lot of different aspects that go into a cover design. It’s not just like a pretty picture.

So it’s something that I have some expertise in and I can use and I guide them to make a decision that will benefit the book.

Justin: Well then that’s all the questions I have for the moment, but it didn’t look like I didn’t stump you today.

Joel: I think that’s a good thing. Thank you, Justin, for questioning me and for, being on the show, we spent a lot of time together recently, so I appreciate it. Thank you so much.

Justin: No problems. Glad you’re not sick of me yet.

Joel: And likewise, take care, Justin.

Justin: Perfect. Thank you. Have a good one. Bye-bye.

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