Ami Sanyal | How To Create Effective Marketing Funnels For Your Business

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And now your host, Joel Mark Harris.

Joel: Hello, and welcome to episode number 19. I’m your host, Joel Mark Harris. Today, we have a great guest on Amie Sanyal. He is the founder of the Uncommoners Club and he does marketing consulting. So we talk all about marketing today. he does webinar funnels, through paid click advertising. And he will tell you a little bit about how he does it.

And some tips that you can take away and implement in your business on a side note. I mean, I have been friends for many years. We first met on TEDx Vancouver, which is obviously a Ted event. Yeah. I was doing all the copy and email writing while he did the social media. So we’ve known each other for a long time and it’s great to have him on the show.

So enjoy this wide ranging conversation. Hi, how’s it going today?

Ami: Doing really well. How are you?

Joel: Good. I’m really happy to have you on the podcast and I want to start, so. Creativity is a big topic. and I know you’ve, you’ve created a networking group, events around creative, people. We’ll talk about that a little bit later, but what I want to first start off, can somebody be more creative?

And, and how do you think about creativity?

Ami: Yeah, a hundred percent. I believe that people can be more creative. I think that we all y’all have talents. Yeah. Each and every one of us. And they may be in different areas. so we, we have different starting points for how good we are at a thing, but any sort of, dedication to a craft.

Take the practice. And so, to be more creative just means to put in more practice. and you know, during the last few months I picked up my guitar a little bit more, than usual. And I, I decided I would. Take a little course and, and, and practice every day. And I found that, just so quickly, you, you can play, play things faster, right?

And I think that’s, that’s applicable to writing. It’s applicable to design whatever your area of interest is.

Joel: What about the people who say that I’m not a creative person? Is there one. Or a couple of ways that they can help develop that creative muscle.

Ami: Yeah. I think it’s a lot to do with mine. so, I had a coach once that put me on to the differences between, you know, fixed and growth mindset.

and it’s something that I try to teach my kids and my, my niece, you know, When you say you’re not something or I can’t do something, that’s a very limited, belief, you know, you’ve, you’ve fixed that to be a true thing. when you say I’m learning to do something or I’m getting better at this, or I’m working on this, it just opens up to possibility.

Right. I think, you know, that’s, that’s really, the biggest thing is just, how do you define it? Is this something that you are, you know, just getting better at it, still working on, or is this something you’re not good at? you get to decide how you just define that. So I think it’s, it’s a sneaky one.

It has nothing to do with your actual ability. It’s how you think about it and how much time you’re willing to put towards it. Cause anything worthwhile takes time.

Joel: And what about people who are creative in a certain aspect, let’s say painting, right? How can they take those talents and make money and become, make it more of a profession and less of a hobby?

Ami: Big broad question. I think that one of the best things that anybody can learn, yeah, how to sell, right. How to sell, how to communicate, Because, if you are serious about taking up a profession, in creative, in a creative area, whether that’s fine arts or more applied arts, you need to be able to discern what makes you different.

What makes you special? Why somebody should invest their hard-earned dollars in, in what you have. So, it’s one of the sneakiest things, because most creatives don’t go into business, thinking they want to be a salesperson. But, that becomes more important than their talent or skills very quickly.

There are a lot of really great writers, really great designers, whatever, out there that are broke. Right. whereas there were a lot of mediocre, companies that scale or freelancers that, that make it work because they’re really good at selling. Right. And so, I think that’s the, the skill to develop.

Joel: So, is that also just a mindset? Do you think that, you know, we’re, I think we’re told at a young age, you can’t be creative and, you know, and make money from it from a lot of talents, you know, writing art, you know, even photography, I think too, you know? So is, do you think that is. It’s something that society has falsely, portrayed or portrayed.

Ami: Yeah, a hundred percent. I think that most people get into a creative field, whether that’s commercial or fine artists per se, is a with the thought that this is not going to be a big moneymaker. Right. They go into it straight for the passion and that’s just a fallacy, right? It’s not, it’s not, not true.

There are people that make a lot of money doing the same thing. And so, the story, or you tell yourself matters a lot and where you put your attention matters a lot. So, I think, you know, I’ve touched on the fact that you need to put the time in to learn new skills, whether that’s sort of your creative skills or your business skills.

And then how you do it matters as well. Right? So just putting time into something, isn’t, isn’t, a sure-fire way to, to make an improvement. You have to make sure that you’re, you know, reading the right material and the right processes. And so that takes a teacher, a little bit of research and then a little bit of, Instruction sometimes, but, you know, practicing the right way matters too.

Joel: I want to switch gears a little bit. You started out as a photographer, you switched to social media now, a marketing consultant. Can you tell me a little bit about your journey and why you ended up where you are?

Ami: Yeah, for sure. so, you know, you touched on the story, people tell. So when I was in high school, I wanted to be a musician.

I was a singer-songwriter and I just didn’t see a path. You know, the people in my life were like, yeah, that’s great. You’re, you’re pretty good, but you know, I’m an accountant. and so I went to school thinking maybe I would study some accounting. I was a horrible student, never really showed up. And I decided to take out, you know, quote-unquote, break from school a couple of years in.

And go work. And so I got a job in accounting and an accounting department and, it was a really good job. I was like 19 and I was in a job that I could write out for the rest of my career and I just was dying. It sucks so bad. Right. And so, at that time I discovered. photography, but my first like legit camera and I was like, Oh, this is great.

It had all the aspects that I love about music and the self expression, but I could also see how I could serve other people six months, six months after picking up my first camera. I quit that job that I had and became a full-time photographer. So that was kind of my first leap into business. It was a gateway drug for me because I started many businesses along the way from e-comm to SAS products.

So a few different ones and, but all the while I was a photographer and, People started to come up and say, listen, I’m watching what you’re doing to market your business and these other businesses. can you help me? And so that’s when the uncommon his club was founded as a side of the desk project to help, the people in my network.

And, eventually, I realized that the impact that I was making with the uncommon news club was what really fulfilled me. It was the long-term impact that could really change the life of a small business owner and their team. And so I decided to put it all in, into the commerce club and, and that’s, that’s our, our main focus.

Joel: Did you take any formal training in either marketing or photography or is that something you learned on the flyer on the job?

Ami: I think that’d be what, what people would call is self-taught, but it’s hard it’s kind of a lie of a term, right? So, I mean, I’ve read a lot and I’ve also invested a lot in, in, in mentorship and coaching and in, in learning.

And so, no, I didn’t go to get a degree in it, but I’ve had a lot of people, helped me along my way.

Joel: What are maybe some, three, let’s say three things or a couple of things that your mentors taught you that you are still used today.

Ami: So, via the sales process. I’ve mentioned this before. It took me a really long time to understand the importance of process in sales.

I’m talking like a decade. and once I understood it was like unlocking a door, right? Like if I could. stand out from my editors in the first conversation, I’m talking to first five, five minutes, and lead people down a pleasurable experience that gets them. They want, I can charge more. I can do projects that are more exciting to me and just have a better rapport with my clients and I did before.

And I think that was such a huge takeaway. there, the importance of, of writing, is something that, you know, it’s something that’s always been. I actually became a photographer because I was a blogger, or, you know, I was able to get access to things through writing and as my career developed that.

That relationship to writing is only grown stronger to the point where now our agency, I mean, I think it’s heart and soul lies in direct response copywriting. Like that’s a, you know, sure. We place ads and, and, and create webinars and things like that. But without the writing, it would, it would be worthless.

Right. So, I think, learn how to, how to write, learn, learn sales copy. Is the other side of talking a lot about sales. the third thing I think is never put yourself in a position to be desperate. You know, it’s very hard to take this to heart because if you need money, it feels like you’re desperate.

So, make sure you reserve, enough money that you can say no. when you need to, and you know, sometimes I forget this, you know, even now, but, if you, you remember that you’re never desperate for a client, you can keep your relationship to that client in a healthy, when you need them to say, yes, you lose all the cards and you start doing things you regret and start, start.

Feeling ill towards that client, even though it’s not really their fault. Right. So make sure you have the ability to stay now,

Joel: what I want, I’d like to talk about a sales copy or a copy in general. What is something that you could recommend maybe it’s a resource or just some tips that people can use that they can take away and use in their own business?

Ami: I’m a really approachable book on copy and storytelling is I’m building a story brand. You’re familiar with that one. No, actually it’s a pretty, pretty, pretty fun read. And it’s, it’s, you know, not written for copywriters it’s written for business owners. So, it touches on brand. It touches on how you might, you know, layout your website, that type of thing.

so I think that’s a really nice, kind of start to things. and then, you know, if you want to really go down the rabbit hole, Gary Halbert, is, he is a great copywriter to research and lookup. He’s got, a bunch of letters that you can Google, that are, are good reading. John Carlton is a great author on copywriting, Dan Kennedy.

so these are, these are direct response copywriters. I did a lot of direct mail pieces, that were, you know, multimillion-dollar successes that we can learn from today.

Joel: And so you mentioned, people who, who have influenced you in your life and role models and mentors, who do you think has influenced you the most in your career path?

Ami: I’d probably say my grandfather is actually who I’m named for. it didn’t, I never saw him as a, when he was working, he was already retired by the time I came along. But the reputation he had in his community. Was one of a generous person that connects people, not for any self-benefit, but because it just benefits the community and that’s who he wanted to be.

And when he died, I think this is what I really learned. It is when he died. I was in Shanghai. I was away. I wasn’t here in Vancouver. Wasn’t able to come to his funeral. And one of my ways of dealing with this kind of heartache was I put a website up in his honour and just put some, some of the eulogies that were spoken onto that side.

And some photos and somebody contacted me. He was like a VP at Pepsi and was like, Oh, I just found out through that website that, that, that, army had died. And he brought me out of the slums. I was literally living in a slum. He became my mentor. He like helped me get to college, paid my way through part of it.

And, you know, it’s because of him that I’m able to do what I do now. And my family is able to do what they do now. And that was like such a crazy story that I’d never heard. Like I never knew he had this relationship to his community before. And so. That was a pretty meaningful moment that I hadn’t kind of realized how impactful it was at the time.

But I think what I. Generate a lot of joy from now is exactly that is connecting people to resources and people and opportunities that they may not otherwise have. you know, so that’s, that was probably the thing that awesome.

Joel: That’s a really amazing story for sure. so speaking about connecting, you started a group called Creative Pulse.

I guess it’s meaning all online now, but, can you tell me, what, what is Creative Pulse and why you started it?

Ami: Yeah, Creative Pulse is a volunteer-run organization that, helps commercials creatives. as, as we’ve talked about most creative people get into the business, and they are other freelancers that can’t pay their bills where they’re getting paid.

All right. But they’re working 12, 14 hours a day. and this is the expectation in our industry. And so we aim to help creatives thrive and build businesses that they’re proud of and careers that they’re proud of. so we, we produce, several events every, every year. We usually one a month. and, There are around three pillars.

We want to help people share inspiration, spark new collaborations, and just genuinely connect to like-minded folks. And so, we’ve been doing this for several years, here in Vancouver, and we’re now kind of growing online to a larger community, across North America.

Joel: So I guess COVID has helped with that?

Ami: Yeah, it kind of lined up with some of our goals, in, in some ways, it’s been a bit a challenge if I’m being honest. especially because it’s not just, COVID, we’re dealing with, we’re also in the middle of a, you know, civil rights movement as well. And so it’s been a balance of, how much do you want to promote, at this time, as well as, how, how do you, you know, give value to the, to the community?

Well, there’s a lot of noise. So we actually started up a new group, a Facebook group, which has been really valuable for people to just keep the conversation going in between events. And so it was that we run.

Joel: So what, how should. Companies market themselves in this kind of strange environment. And what sort of, you know, what tips would you give to businesses who aren’t really sure.

Should I say this? Should I not? What, what is my message?

Ami: it’s interesting you ask. I was just speaking about this at, another event, yesterday. So I think one of the challenges that people face when thinking about their digital presence in general, and especially now is. You know, am I going to have to have like a million followers for this to be even worthwhile?

And for most small business owners, that’s a very daunting fact. if they’re feeling challenged by this, it’s usually because they don’t actually enjoy, kind of jumping on the hamster wheel. That is a lot of marketing, you know, social, especially, Even content marketing for that matter. and so I think take some of the pressure off is the first thing, right?

There’s a guy named Kevin Kelly. He wrote a pretty famous essay called a thousand true fans in it. Have you, are you familiar? Yeah. Yeah. Great. So, so for context, Kevin Kelly founded Wired magazine, and this, this, this essay, he talks about how we don’t need a million followers as small business owners. We only need a thousand people who believe what we believe and where our brand is a part of their identity.

And so that number is not arbitrary. It’s, you know, basically if somebody spends a hundred dollars with you, there’s a thousand people who do that. You’ve got a hundred thousand dollars in revenue. And so you can scale whatever number of two fans you need, according to your business and the margins of that business.

But. It just makes it much more approachable. So yeah. Take the number out. It’s not a million followers. It’s a thousand people really connect with. The other thing is it doesn’t have to be tech talk. If you don’t like tick doc, don’t go. And tick doc, that’s fine. Maybe, you know, some of the hidden ones that people don’t take advantage of are, you know, Forums groups, Facebook groups, Slack channels, places where you can have more one-to-one conversations and become recognized as the person who gives value.

That’s a lot more approachable for a lot of people. So think, think expansively, often that can be a gateway for people, right? If I’m really good at providing value in this Slack channel, and I understand what makes people tick, then I can share the best parts of that on other channels. Right. And you start getting excited about it.

So I think that’s a really good starting point. That’s a lot more approachable for people who are feeling daunted by a digital marketing.

Joel: I think that’s amazing advice. That’s really good. so I want to go back and talk a little bit about Creative Pulse. You do a lot of events. What goes into creating something as, as large as credit Paul’s.

I know you, you speak at other events, so what, what are some key aspects?

Ami: so there’s a few different aspects to organizing an event. The simplest to talk about is logistics. Obviously you need a space. You need to consider the capacity the AV, the technical aspects, right? So, after that comes kind of food and beverage as another kind of bucket to deal with.

And then the most important is what happens at the event. Right. So, our typical event is a talking social. that’s the most common type that we run. We have a few others, but that’s our fallback and talking social, usually is a short, around 20 minutes, a presentation, somebody who’s either out of a peer in the industry or a leader in the industry.

And, then we have an interactive component. then we have Q and a, and then into a social where we have pizza and beer. Now this format is something that was pretty deliberate in that. my feeling is, you know, most content is available online. You do not have to leave your house or put on pants to digest content.

if you’re going to an event, you, you, the value of that event is in the connections that you made. But people are shy, especially creative people I I’ve learned are, there are more introverts than non, I think it, the career lends itself well to, to introverts. And so, the interactive component is probably the most important part because it allows people to play with a concept in a safe space with other people that they.

There are like-minded, but they don’t necessarily know. And those small groups can then go into the social, having a bit of a bridge. There’s a bit of a connection already made. So when we go into the social, which is the most important part of the event, in my opinion, The connections are already being made.

And we’ve got an atmosphere that’s a little bit more like a house party and never like a networking event. Right. We actually never used the word networking in any of our copy in any event that we ever run. because, nobody is like drawn to that word, whereas, you know, connect, connecting to friends and likeminded people.

Joel: And so what are the what’s next for Creative Pulse? What are you trying to achieve the next six months?

Ami: Well, it’s an interesting time to be asking that question right now. We are taking a bit of a break to assess that. so this is the first summer where we’re taking off. I think it’s a good one to take off for our team.

and then in September, we’ll be picking up again with our talks and socials. So, you know, obviously that’s the first thing. Can we, can we, can I keep on the momentum that we’ve had in the past, we usually get about a hundred people out or events would be great to, to grow that number now that we have access to the, you know, the world, anybody can join, Online.

So that’s the first thing. Can we, can we grow? the other piece that I’m assessing is what are the other opportunities, other ways we can provide value to the audience, whether that’s through formal mentorship. you know, we ran a, I ran a coaching program around sales and marketing for freelancers last year.

Yeah, that was very successful. So thinking about running that again. so there’s a few, a few great opportunities, that we’re looking at as well as just structurally, how do we organize, our team so that, as we grow it’s, you know, fair, and, and effective.

Joel: Awesome. What are some of, you know, entrepreneurs, business owners, biggest fails and marketing?

And, and is there, you know, through your mentorship and through working in the industry for so long, is there a common thread and things that some pitfalls that these business owners can avoid?

Ami: Yeah. I think there’s a sense of, Duty obligation, that a lot of business owners feel towards marketing as well as resistance.

And so that is kind of a deadly combination because you end up doing things very tactically in that, like you’re just checking a box and then you’re frustrated when it doesn’t work. So you’re posting on Instagram every day or your, you know, just doing activities like that with no real sense of how does this fit my greater strategy, my greater goals.

and so that’s a deadly thing because it means that you’re guaranteed that you’re never going to be happy with that. Time investment or money investment. So understanding that strategy becomes comes before tactics is a, is a lesson that most entrepreneurs need to understand painfully, at a certain point.

and, yeah, I’d say that’s the biggest part of it. Is there a second part of that question that I, they didn’t answer?

Joel: No, that’s good. How do you think about ROI on social media? Because it can be really easy to get. So caught up in the likes and the shares and you know, how many views you have, but that at the end of the day, doesn’t pay the bills.

So what are some ROIs you would recommend businesses look at, especially on social media?

Ami: Yeah, it’s sort of a case by case. Our agency specializes in paid social, right? We aren’t here managing your social media channels and your daily posting. One of the reasons is because it’s really hard to track ROI.

Now it’s not impossible to say if you have a, ECommerce business. you can track the number of clicks coming from social channels, going to your website and making purchases, right? That’s the most direct thing you can do that with a consultant style business, how many people are going to your contact page and booking a call?

so you have to understand what is the action you’re trying to drive and how am I going to track that action? with digital, digital, Endeavors it’s easy enough to do the tracking, but a lot of the time we get distracted by things like likes and comments, which are, which are important, but they’re secondary KPIs.

Right. I can have a million likes. I can just buy them. I can do it today. Right. Just by a million likes. Great. Got a million likes. Did, did I make a sale? Like, you know, did I even get close to making a sale? Like, so. At this point for a lot of our clients, you know, unless you’re really trying to get to that influencer level or a larger-scale kind of e-com style business, but for our consultant style clients, more and more, yeah, they’re wanting social to be a, a secondary thing.

What I mean by that is a client shouldn’t be turned off by a lack of presence. Right. In many cases, they don’t have any presence at all on their social channels. They’re only focused on the customer journey from paid advertising. so there’s a little more wiggle room than, than, than there was in the past, I think.

but don’t just do things, because you feel like you have to, and everybody says you do. Yes.

Joel: Good advice for sure. You mentioned you focus on paid social and I believe that is to mainly to promote webinars and then a phone call. Can you tell me about why you chose that process, that marketing funnel, and why, you know, companies should consider it.

Ami: Because it works really well. I mean, that’s, that’s really, it, we’ve tested a lot of different types of funnels and maybe one day this won’t work or that well, we’ll see. But right now, I look at a few, can I, can I create something it’s going to have a long shelf life because most people come to me and they’re tired of creating stuff on that hamster wheel that I was talking about earlier today.

so, a lot of the stuff we can, it created a very long shelf life. The webinar piece doesn’t need to get changed because it’s created with the idea that it’s going to be long-lasting. Maybe the ad itself needs some refreshing. You’re going to change the photo, test a video, change the copy up a little bit, but generally even the ads run a really long time.

Right. So that’s refreshing. When it comes to marketing because a lot of, a lot of campaigns are, have a very short shelf life. So that’s the first reason. The second reason is, as I said before, I think we are very good long-form communicators. And so, it lends itself very well to. Webinars, because we can take somebody’s expertise and package it in a way that has a sense of flow to it, a sense of value to it.

And, and, and, produce the result, which is, you know, people wanting to jump on a call with that person and seeing that as an opportunity to learn and grow, not as an opportunity to lose money.

Joel: And so what sort of content do you put in the webinar?

Ami: so our webinars are structured, As commercial teaching. so that, that phrase comes from a book called the challenger sale. It’s a great book, highly recommend. in commercial teaching, we lead to a solution. We don’t start with it because we aren’t saying the reason you need to buy a, you know, ghostwriting services or X, Y, and Z. We start with an understanding of their problem, reframing it in a way that’s refreshing and not being regurgitated all over the world.

and then. You know, leading them down a path of education. So that by the time we come to the end, they’re interested in speaking further. The second aspect, I think that I don’t see very often is we need in the elephant, which is the reason and why we want to jump on the call. So I’ll send you this, right?

The reason why we do these, free consultation calls is twofold. First of all, you know, some people, are going to be able to do this on their own. So we want to help you. Point you to resources and make sure you understand how to, that’s great. If you can do that. And some other people are going to be a fit for working with us.

We can explore that if that makes sense. Right? So by naming that elephant, you kind of relax people, right? It’s like, okay, I’m not, there’s no mystery here. I know why I’m getting into this call. And I know that it’s not going to be a high-pressure sales environment. So I think, those are kind of some, some good starting points for creating webinars, leading to a solution.

Joel: Awesome. So I want to dive a little bit deeper on this if I may. do you primarily use just Facebook and Instagram for your pay-per-click? Or is there other channels depending on I guess the clientele.

Ami: Yeah, it’s a question we get all the time. we start with Facebook and Instagram because time and time again, that’s where we see the best ROI.

and then once we’ve got that up and running, we explore the channels and we don’t limit ourselves to, to which, I say we don’t limit to ourselves, but, The thing that we try to do with our social campaign is we aren’t looking for people who already have an understanding of their problem and desired solution.

So that’s why we don’t do a ton of SEO. We don’t do any SEO or even search ads, for that matter. we are looking to help people frame their problem. So you know that your marriage is falling apart, but you don’t quite know what to do about it. And what your solution might look like. And so this ad and webinar and, and consultation is going to help you with that.

So that once you get to the end of that journey, if you haven’t signed up, when you’re looking for things online, competitive solutions, you’re not really going to find one. That’s going to be laid up in the way that we have. So we’re putting ourselves at an advantage by. marketing to clients that are a little earlier in that cycle.

Joel: And so do you use Twitter and LinkedIn?

Ami: Yeah. Twitter, LinkedIn we’ve used in the past. Like I said, they can work, but ROI wise, it’s, it’s almost always smarter across industries, to start with Facebook and Instagram. Now there’s definitely exceptions to that. but you know, as a general rule, I’d say to start with the non-obvious sometimes for the B2B clients, Facebook and Instagram.

Joel: And what tools do you use to, for your webinars? Is it go-to-webinar or is there something that you like?

Ami: So we’re agnostic when it comes to tools, I hate, kind of bloating, our clients with, with software that’s kind of only used for one reason. So the first step, in many cases, with our clients is an assessment of what’s in their tool belt already.

If we can get away with it, sometimes they’re subscribers of different webinars services and it works and great. right now we do. We do use, go to webinar, but stealth is, is a tool we use. it’s not that common, but before the evergreen kind of stuff. We’re doing some stuff with stealth right now.

Joel: So this is a question I like to ask all my, My, I guess my, the people who I interview. and you mentioned several talks already, but is there a favourite or a book that has most influenced you?

Ami: I read quite a bit, so it’s very hard for me to answer this question without it being a kind of flavour of the day.

I think one of the like kind of time and time again, books that I come back to and maybe gift to others is, is, is how to win friends and influence people, kind of an old Dean of Getty. the modern version of that, which I also kind of think about. And, and talk about every once in a while, especially if you’re, well, I mentor, is, never eat alone.

You’re familiar with, you’re familiar with that one. Keith Rozzi, it’s concepts a little bit more modern, in it, one of the nuggets I like is a, you know, no matter what level, somebody. Reaches in their career, there are three main interests, which you should tune into are their health, their wealth and their family.

So if you’re networking or meeting somebody for the first time, first of all, don’t talk about yourself that yeah. Much, but try to get the person to talk about their challenges and one of those three areas. And if you can follow up with ways that can help in those three categories, you’re much more likely to deepen that connection in a meaningful way.

Joel: Awesome. Thank you so much for being on the show. If people want to reach out to you, where can they find

Ami: you? you can reach out to me on LinkedIn Ami Sanyal. You’ll find me there. You can find me on most social channels or creativepulse.co is our website and the Uncommoners club is uncommonersclub.com.

Joel: Thanks again for being here.

Ami: Thank you for the invite, Joel. I really appreciate it.

Joel: You’re welcome.