Jeremy Colwell | How Companies Can Overcome A Financial Crisis

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Joel: Hello, this is Joel Mark Harris, and this is the publishing for profit podcast. In this episode, we speak to Jeremy Caldwell of CPG systems. We have a wide variety of topics we talk about, including why he’s so passionate about nonprofit, the art of war, and what he’s doing in covert 19 so enjoy. Good morning Jeremy, and welcome to the publishing for a profit podcasts.

I’m so happy to have you on

Jeremy: the show. I’m glad to be here. Thanks for inviting me, Joel.

Joel: Awesome. Um, so your company deals with information technology it. Mmm. Can you tell me where that love of technology started?

Jeremy: You know, it’s the love of technology itself, uh, kind of evolved over the years. What it actually started as was a love of problem solving.

Uh, I’m one of those people. I really enjoy puzzles. I really enjoy the mental challenge of going through, going through the process of logical elimination. Uh, you know, following the Sherlock Holmes path. When you’ve eliminated all other possibilities, whatever remains must be the truth. And growing up, I was a big fan of sir Arthur Conan Doyle.

Uh, I always enjoyed reading the Sherlock Holmes books. And believe it or not, computer support is a lot like that. Sometimes it’s, it’s less of a black and white science. Uh, many people figure that it’s very, it’s, it’s all about ones and zeros. And the reality is that there is a lot of elimination and logic that needs to be applied in order to come to the correct solution.

You can sometimes have four or five possibilities for why something’s going wrong and just have to find the right reason. And that’s the part that appeals to me.

Joel: Cool. Can you give me a recent example of a problem you’ve solved?

Jeremy: Sure. Uh, emails. Somebody sends a support request to our company and says, my email isn’t going through.

Okay, why? And then you start looking at the various error codes and what they could mean and whether it’s a problem on this end, is it a problem at the other end? And you have to have an inter an intricate understanding. Of how email systems work in order to properly troubleshoot them. It’s not as simple as, I sent my email and I got a bounce back saying it’s failed from the perspective of the person sending the email.

That’s the part that matters, is it failed, and of course, we’re always aware of that. We’re supportive for the person. Hmm. But they, the person who’s tried to send the email doesn’t care about why the mechanics at the backend have failed. We care about why the mechanics have failed, but the person sending the email doesn’t.

So we have to try to translate if the person cares the technical into the lay description. And we have to try to go through the process of elimination to determine the root cause in the first place so that we’re not just applying a bandaid so that we’re actually applying a permanent longterm fix.

Cool.

Joel: Right. So you’re the owner of CPG systems. Can you tell us them, have you always wanted to own your own company? Have you always wanted to be an entrepreneur?

Jeremy: Again, I sort of came into that, uh, many it companies in our market, in the greater Vancouver area, many it companies started with somebody got a job, they came out of school, they got a job, and they didn’t like the job.

So they’ve just decided to hang out a shingle. And we have a lot of. Company is in our city that are based on that. They’ve got one person, maybe two, if they’re lucky. And for me, it started that way as well. I was one person. I started doing some contracting and about four and a half years ago, uh, part way through 2015 I made.

An actual mental decision. I made a conscious choice to turn CPG systems into a thriving, growing business as opposed to a lifestyle. Uh, and since then, I’ve very much enjoyed the challenge of growing the business. We started in 2007 so. This is our, this isn’t our first crisis. Uh, of course we’re dealing with the, the covert 19 thing.

Now. This isn’t our first crisis. It probably won’t be our last crisis. Um, but it’s also a challenge. It’s, it’s a puzzle. How do you make things grow? How do you make things survive? How do you thrive in a challenging time? And that to me is so much fun.

Joel: No, it really is. Yeah. Um, so starting in 2007, just with the financial crisis, how did you, um, as a new business, that must’ve been extremely scary.

How did you deal with that?

Jeremy: Well, at the time, I, and, and this is going to sound funny to say I was too stupid to know any different, uh, when the financial. Dominoes fell in 2008 at that point, I’d already picked up some contracts. I already had some regular monthly recurring income through service agreements that I held with different institutions, uh, different companies.

And that helped me quite a bit. So I was able to. Make it through a couple of years in that situation, and at the same time that the financial crisis sort of started wrapping itself up in the back half of 2010 early 2011 I had other things on my mind. I had an a number of personal things on my mind anyways, so I wasn’t as concerned at that point and just sort of rode the wave of recovery of that

Joel: Is there any learnings from 2008 that you think could apply to now with the covert 19 ?

Jeremy: That’s a really good question. The, there’s the old adage that the best time to prepare for a bad economy is in a good economy, and that’s one of the things that I would. Definitely say that I learned is never stop marketing.

Uh, it’s, I, I understand that sometimes you have to look at the dollars and cents. There are enough other venues out there where you can do some marketing that is low cost or no cost. And taking advantage of that is one of the big things that I learned in previous financial times of difficulty is never stop marketing.

Never stop working at driving yourself forward. Cool. I think

Joel: that’s awesome advice for me. I think that one thing I’ve learned is that. Times like this where it’s so difficult. These are also the times that are have the greatest opportunity. It’s like for, for me, starting this podcast, I probably would have not done it if it wasn’t for a covert 19.

So I think, um, there’s tons of. Of chances to, um, Excel. And it’s just a matter of finding those avenues. And, uh, the people who, the entrepreneurs who are most adapt that, uh, pivoting, you know, they’re the ones that are going to be successful in times like this. And I think those are skills that you always.

And you know, they’re, they’re super important and they’re, and it’s very important to learn. So I think, you know, I think that’s very interesting. And these are challenging times, but there are also times that you can, can do really well in some.

Jeremy: Absolutely. Yeah. And, and you know, that’s a phrase, uh, one phrase that you mentioned there is something that I’ve heard a lot over the past two weeks is pivot.

And it’s not even necessarily about being able to pivot. It’s the new reality does not necessarily mean that every business has to change. Some businesses are doing just great exactly the way they are. Uh, there’s always going to be a need for online marketing experts. That doesn’t necessarily mean you have to pivot.

And move away from online marketing. It may be means that you’re changing your portfolio of that, but that’s not a pivot. That’s simply adding new services. That’s adding new products. There’s an, in our business, you know, doing remote support for us is not much of a change. We’ve always done a lot of remote support.

We’re just doing more of it now. This to us is another month in the life of an it company. We’re simply working differently. That doesn’t mean we have to pivot. It just means we need to be more cognizant of what we’re doing and how we’re doing it and how we’re communicating it to potential customers.

Joel: Cool. Yeah. Uh, let’s K shift back a little bit. I want to talk about the name of your company, CPG, and I know what that stands for, but I want you to explain that to our audience.

Jeremy: In 2005, I was working for one of the ministry, BC government ministry offices. Was it 2005? Um. No, it was 2003 it was even before that I was working for one of the BC gov ministries and the one of the people in the ministry we’re supporting stopped me in the hall one day and said, ask me a technical question, and so I answered and just rattled off the answer.

And the staff are looked at me and he said, Oh my God, Jeremy, you’re such a geek. And that particular day I had an important meeting. So I was wearing a shirt and a tie, and I sort of looked down on myself and I said, Nope, I’m a professional. Deep.

Joel: Did he mean it as a compliment?

Jeremy: Probably, yeah. Um, and on about another 10 seconds thought it was, I’m a certified processional geek.

Um, and, uh, so that’s what CPG stands for, is certified professional geeks, but we maintain the professionalism. We try not to use the G word.

Joel: Um, so you’ve had that name for kind of kicking in the background for some time.

Jeremy: The name has been around, I actually registered the name, uh, CPG systems back in 2003. Uh, right around the time that I came that I had that conversation, I came to the realization, no, that wouldn’t be a really good company named CPG systems.

It’s got a good story. Does so, so I actually did go out and register the name, uh, at the time and just sorta kept it idle for a few years. And then when I started the, when I started doing some contracting in 2007, then I activated the company name and the rest, as they say, is history.

Joel: Cool. Um, so your company deals in a lot of nonprofits.

Can you tell me why that sector in particular.

Jeremy: A lot of businesses figure they’re different every, if you look at marketing, if you look at the content on the websites, you see a lot of statements along the lines of, Oh, we’re different. We’re not like other widget producers. We’re not like other, uh, other service companies. We’re different. We want to be your partner.

We want to work with you, not for you. And at the end of the day, they’re not different. They’re there for money. I’m there for money. You’re there for money. They are there for money and charities and nonprofits have a different mandate. They are not there for money. No. Some of them are. There’s a few that even though they have charitable status, they would.

Probably identify more as fundraising organizations as opposed to true charitable organizations. Anytime you see a commercial on TV for a charity, that’s not a charitable organization, that’s a fundraising organization. Charities are not there for the money. They’re there for the purpose, for the mission.

They are there to make the world a better place. They are there to support a group. They are there to provide services to a community or a community segment. They are there for something more than just the almighty dollar, and that really appeals to me. And I started volunteering. At one point, I’m back in, I want to say 2005 I started volunteering for a charity and I realized that I’ve got some skills that are very much in demand by a lot of charities.

So we. Take that. Uh, we take those skills and we apply it to the greater good. There’s things that we can do to help charities fulfill their missions that many other companies can’t. Um, and because we understand charities, I’m, because I’ve been a volunteer because I’ve been a board member for charities.

We understand the way they think. We understand the way they work, and we do it at a different level, so we’re able to blend the technology world with the charitable and nonprofit world and really come up with some great solutions for charities and nonprofits. We do the same thing for a bunch of other.

Segments as well. We do that for professional services. We do that with accounting, and we do that with trades and construction companies, and we understand them equally well. Uh, but the love of charities comes from wanting to make the world a better place and wanting to leave some small legacy behind.

That says, you know what? They made our lives better. They made, they made it easier to do what we need to do.

Joel: Cool. That’s, that’s really awesome. That’s really inspiring, Jeremy, is do nonprofits have different it needs then? Um, and for profit companies? Is there, is there a difference?

Jeremy: A lot of times there isn’t a difference.

If anything, they sometimes have more stringent requirements because they’re often also dealing with fundraising information. So they will hold personally identifiable information. They will hold names, addresses, phone numbers for the donor database because they’re keeping that in house because maybe they don’t have the money to pop to buy some service and keep that in a cloud.

Where it’s somebody else’s responsibility. You know, they’ve got a, they’ve got an Excel spreadsheet, but they’re, the nonprofits are still sending and receiving email. They still use computers. They still use wifi. They still use, they still use phone systems. They have all the same needs as any other business does.

Only they have different, yeah. Budgetary concerns.

Joel: Okay, cool. Um, so you’re a member of the Shriners. Can you tell us what that organization is and why, what your involvement is and

Jeremy: why the Shriners are, they’re the guys that, uh, ride around in parades with  and they’re the ones that are often on the scooters.

Um, and the Fez is the, the funny red hat with the tassel down the side. Uh, the Shriners are an international organization. There are several hundred thousand of us globally, and we operate a network of 22 hospitals in three countries, and we provide best of class orthopedic care to children. We’re  of the family’s ability to pay.

And the perfect example of something like that is if you look at scoliosis in a child in British Columbia, the hospital for children in BC has a mandate, which says that the curvature of the spine must hit a certain number of degrees before they’ll consider surgical intervention. And the wait time for that surgery is anywhere between one to two years.

So you’ve got to get assessed, you’ve got to hit the critical Mark, which mandates intervention. Then you have to wait for the surgical time and it can take a couple of years and, and in the meantime, you know, if you want to get a back brace, then they’ll refer you out to a third party provider. Who will charge you, uh, your left arm and at least three fingers of your right hand for said brace.

The Shriner is, on the other hand, we will pay for your transportation to the closest trainers, hospital for children. We will get you evaluated if you’re. If the child’s condition is appropriate for surgical intervention, then we get you on the surgical waiting list immediately, and that waiting list is usually measured in weeks.

It’s not measured in months. It’s certainly not measured in years. The typical wait is four to six weeks. And in the meantime, if you’re not quite at the point of surgical intervention, that the Shriner’s hospital will actually produce a brace for you or for the kid. And if the kid grows out of the brace, then you returned to Shriner’s hospital and we’ll provide you another brace.

And we do this for a number of orthopedic conditions. So whether it’s. Uh, scoliosis, whether it’s brittle bone disease, uh, whether it’s cleft palates, whether it’s burn care, anything to do with bones, uh, we can help with and we cover, like I said, the, the transportation for the patient and a caregiver. If there is a hotel stay required, we cover the hotel stay.

Yes, there is a transportation to and from a hotel from an airport. We covered the trans, we’ve covered the transfers. Essentially our, the, the view of the Shriners is that we’re here to make the lives of children better regardless. Of the child’s financial situation, and there’s hospitals in, there’s one in Montreal, there’s, uh, there’s one in Spokane, there’s one in Portland, salt Lake city, Sacramento, Tampa, uh, Boston, Minneapolis, Houston.

They’re all over the place. There was even one in Mexico city. And wherever the best care is for the condition that the child is afflicted by wherever the best care is. That’s where Wilson. Yeah. If you need to go to the Honolulu hospital, we’ll send you to the Honolulu hospital. If you need to go to.

Miami, we’ll send you to Miami. If you only need to drive down to Portland, then you can drive down to Portland and we’ll pay your gas.

Joel: Have things changed with coven 19 for the hospitals, or is it pretty much status quo for you guys?

Jeremy: For the hospitals there? Of course, on a elevated protocol, everybody in every medical.

Profession right now is concerned about the new reality and rightly so. If there is a medically necessary procedure than it is happening. If it’s something that can be deferred, then they’re trying to defer those procedures now, just in the interests of everybody’s health. We, the Shriners. Like everybody, even even the public healthcare system in BC here, the if, if it’s an elective surgery, it’s canceled.

If it’s something that’s deemed medically necessary, then it’s still happening and that hasn’t changed. There’s just different cleaning protocols and that’s the same everywhere. Whether it’s Canada, the U S, uh, everything that I’ve read is that pretty much every healthcare facility is, is experiencing the same concerns.

Joel: Hmm. Okay. Um, and so what do you to the Shriners has been in particular and why, why this cause out of so many?

Jeremy: Well, they deal with kids. Uh, they work to make kids’ lives better. The Shriners they in BC and Yukon weather. It’s okay on Vancouver Island and the lower mainland, whether it’s in the interior, we are all working to raise money that support the efforts of Shriners international in the Shriners hospitals for children.

Sometimes that means we’re going out and selling calendars. Uh, sometimes it means we’re selling raffle tickets, uh, for a car. Sometimes it means I’m digging into my pocket of bat. Not really too fussed one way or the other, but why the Shriners, it’s a bunch of, it’s a bunch of people with the same goal.

And that goal is to make the lives of children brighter. There’s a saying in the Shriners that no man stands so tall as when he’s dupes to help a child. So that’s, that’s kind of that.

Joel: I love it. Um, all right. I’m going to shift gears a little bit and go back to it. Um, what. What do you do for marketing?

You mentioned how important marketing is. What do you, what do you do? What, uh, is there any specific actions that you take to consistently market?

Jeremy: We are fans of educational, direct response marketing. Um, we will do direct mail for marketing. Uh, we’re fans of lumpy mail. So we send a six by nine envelope with something inside it.

Uh, besides the three or four pieces of paper we’ve sent, we’ve sent mail with poker chips inside them. We’ve sent mail with, uh, packets of aspirin. You’ve sent mail with packets of burn gel, um, and so on and so forth. And of course a very targeted, we try to get the decision makers name or somebody with the appropriate authority and send the mail directly to that person.

We do, we have direct response, uh, or educational pieces on our website. So. Somebody wants to know about the top questions to ask when choosing an it company. Then we’ve got that exact phrase on our form fill. So somebody Googles that we can come up in the list and they come to our site, Hey, give us your name, your address, or give us your name, your email.

Um. And hit the submit button and we’ll email you the PDF document straight away. Mmm. Mmm. So we do that. And of course, social, we try to make sure that we’re posting up relevant content on to the social channels. Mmm. A lot of that lately has been. How to adapt to the new reality. How do you work from home?

This tool is free. That tool has been made available, and there’s a lot of companies that are doing that now where I think the, the freemium model is going to become the new norm for a lot of companies simply because the reality that we’re in now mandates it. And everybody wants to seem, everybody wants to put forward the impression that they’re cognizant and of course they are aware of their own revenue streams as well.

I think a lot of marketers are wanting to make sure that the message is clear. They want to make sure that the message is compassionate. And they want to ensure that potential customers have an opportunity to try their products for X period of time while the new reality gets fleshed out.

Joel: Hmm. You’re, you mentioned direct mail.

I think that’s quite interesting that a it company still uses a very old school method. Um, why, why direct mail and how do you find it effective?

Jeremy: Why direct mail? Um, everybody loves getting stuff in the mail when it’s not a bill. And why lumpy mail. Because it gets the mail open. Uh, curiosity killed the cat satisfaction brought him back.

So somebody gets a piece of mail and there’s something lumpy inside and, wait, what, what? What is this? I need to know what this is. So they open it and then poof, the, the message is delivered. Um, it. It’s easy to get lost in the noise of email marketing. There’s so much email marketing and even more so now as a lot of companies are trying to look at low cost, no cost marketing and communications options.

How do you maintain, how do you maintain. The distance or how do you maintain the, the separation from the rest of the pack that are all marketing to the same companies that are all marketing to the same people? How do you separate yourself? How do you stand apart and doing something that very few people are doing.

Yes, exactly that I, I still believe that that traditional snail mail has a big part to play in an overall marketing strategy.

Joel: Yeah, I totally agree with that. Um, you were in, sorry, just to dive deep into kind of, you were mentioning social. What social channels do you use

Jeremy: mostly? Right now we’re concentrating on Facebook and LinkedIn simply because that’s where.

The market is . Even business executives have more time. No, and they’re spending the time on LinkedIn. So we’re posting stuff on LinkedIn. LinkedIn traffic has just gone absolutely through the roof lately. Okay. Because the business people want to make sure that they themselves are staying in contact with other executives.

And they can’t necessarily do that on Facebook, but they can do it on LinkedIn. So there’s a lot more traffic on LinkedIn. There is still, there’s always been a lot of traffic on Facebook. That’s a given. What we do for a living does not lend itself as well to a platform like Instagram. And I’m still looking at the possibility of something like TechTalk.

For business. I haven’t investigated that too deeply yet, but it’s something that’s on the radar to take a look at.

Joel: Hmm. That’s interesting. What do you post, um, any long form articles on LinkedIn?

Jeremy: I haven’t, but it’s something that I’m probably going to get into a little bit. I’ve got a few different topics.

That are relevant and germane to the current reality, and I’ll probably gonna do some video posts on them because of course they share very well and I might transcribe and put them later in to LinkedIn and other channels. Certainly make a blog out of it. Um. Try to transcribe for standard content for as for natural SEO and put that on our website as well.

And there’s a couple of possibilities, but I have, I’ve considered long form content. Um, but that’s where I would defer to an expert like yourself who has better experience with something like that. And that that’s, that’s where having. Somebody who’s truly an expert at copywriting and content marketing comes in as really valuable.

Joel: Cool. What do you do, you know, being especially, you know, during this time, being an entrepreneur is incredibly difficult. What do you do to kind of keep abreast of everything? You know, I’m sure there’s. So much new stuff coming up in technology and, and it’s hard to keep on top of it, but so how do you, how do you do that?

Jeremy: Keep on top of technology, you mean? Yeah. Um, that’s a good question. It’s, it’s challenging sometimes. It really is. The, some of the vendors that we deal with will put out. Webinars themselves on new tools, new techniques, uh, new, uh, new products that are available. There’s a few different websites that we’ll go to for trends, especially on cybersecurity.

Cybersecurity is, is really the biggest. Okay. It’s the biggest  out there right now, not named coven. Uh, in our world at least, there’s so many changes to how the bad actors. Are approaching things. And when I say bad actor, I don’t mean William Shatner. Um, in, in the cybersecurity world, the people that are doing the bad things are technically referred to as bad actors.

Joel: Hm. I didn’t know that.

Jeremy: Uh, there you go. Yeah. Or we could just start calling them Shatner’s. I don’t know. Uh,

Joel: that could be fun to hear on this podcast.

Jeremy: The Shatner’s of the world come up with a new variant of ransomware. Um, no, the, uh, the bad actors are really taking advantage. They’re just absolutely going to town with everything that’s going on right now.

And they are. I mean, they, they had no sense of ethics or morals in the first place. Just look at what they do for a living. Yeah. But for the past year and a half, the bad actors have found ways to regularly and consistently monetize what they’re doing. And so for them, it’s simply now there’s more opportunity because there’s all these home computers that people are using.

That don’t necessarily have the same protections that the office computers had. So there’s more targets out there. The office computers are still running now. The home computers are running more, so it’s almost like there’s been, uh huh. It’s almost like there’s been a, a major. Well, there has been a major jump in the number of potential targets available, and the bad guys know this.

So they’re taking advantage. So they’re doing a lot more bad websites. They’re doing a lot more bad emails. They’re doing a lot more. Uh, Oh, your email has been put into Corenti click here to release it. Uh, click here to see the latest statistics. ANCOVA at 19. Um, they’re, they’re taking that approach too.

So there’s, it’s, it’s really tough to keep up sometimes and it takes concerted effort. It takes consistent and persistent effort and you have to find a few places where you can separate the wheat from the chaff and almost kinda look through your crystal ball and see which way things are going.

Joel: Hm. What are some tips you can give companies too, that they can do themselves, um, to protect themselves from the, the Shatner’s of this world?

Jeremy: Well, that’s, that’s a big topic. Uh, it really is the, the big thing that I would suggest and what we recommend to our customers is that you have to have multiple layers of security. There used to be a time where you would have antivirus on the computer and you would have a firewall that was not made by your internet service provider.

You would have an actual firewall and that would be good enough, and you’d, you’d maybe have, uh, you’d maybe have some content filtering on the firewall that. Stopped you from going to visit adult websites and that just doesn’t do it anymore. You have to have a multi layer strategy. There’s a minimum. The bare minimum right now is five layers of protection.

Wow. And that’s considered basic there. There are layers that you can get. Uh, there’s, there’s protections that you can get, which go into 11 and 12 layers deep. And even that, all it’s doing is it’s minimizing the chance of something bad happening. It doesn’t guarantee that it won’t happen. Nobody can guarantee you that it won’t happen.

All you can do is try to minimize the likelihood. Cool.

Joel: All right. I’m going to wrap it up with one more question. You mentioned, um, Sherlock Holmes, which is also a personal favorite. Um, what, is there a book that you would recommend or one that, um, has had a particular impact on your life other than Sherlock Holmes?

And it can be fiction or nonfiction.

Jeremy: Mmm. That’s. Another good question book that’s had a profound impact on my life. Um,  I would say, uh,  I would say the art of war by sun zoo, um, is a really good book on, it’s a really good book. If you wish to become introspective, and if you wish to find ways to make yourself a better person.

Uh, counter-intuitively art of war is very good for that.

Joel: Interesting. So, cause I mean, my understanding, I’ve never read it, but my understanding, it’s all about destroying your enemy and being assertive. So that’s not qualities I associate with being introspective.

Jeremy: It’s not so much about destroying your enemies.

It’s about understanding the obstacles that you face. Whether they come from within or without. The art of war teaches you to understand, Hmm. The challenge that you face. And sometimes the challenge. Is a bad actor. Sometimes the challenge is an environmental condition. Sometimes the challenge comes from within and there there’s, I mean, you could, you could almost do a master’s thesis on art of war by itself.

There’s, there’s so much evaluation and interpretation material out there on understanding. The art of war and learning how to interpret what soon zoo was an, I’m probably pronouncing that wrong. Um, there’s so much to learn on what could have been meant or what one expert says was meant and what somebody, how somebody else interprets that.

And like anything else, you can take all these different interpretations and what lies in between. What lies in the middle ground is probably the truth, but truth for one person is still going to be truth. Uh, that’s different for somebody than it is for somebody else. The way you read a word in a book is going to be different one day versus the next, based on the mood that you’re in.

The tone that you, you read the word with in your minds dictionary and in the mood, the, the implication of the phrase will change from one day to the next, even for a single person and art of war is about even understanding that that. The way you see things may not necessarily be the way somebody else sees it.

It doesn’t necessarily mean they’re right. It doesn’t necessarily mean they’re wrong. It just means they’re different. And understanding the difference is the key to overcoming the obstacle presented to you. Just as an example.

Joel: Cool. Well, let’s, that’s, that’s super cool, Jeremy. Thank you for sharing that.

Let’s wrap it up there. Um, Jeremy, where can people find you?

Jeremy: Uh, the best place to find us is on Facebook. Uh, CPG systems, all one word. Um, www dot CPG systems. Dot CA. Uh, we’re on LinkedIn under CPG systems as well. Or you can just send us an email, ask.us at CPG systems.ca. Cool.

Joel: Thank you so much for being on the show, Jeremy.

I appreciate your time and it was great having you.

Jeremy: Thanks very much for having me, Joel, and uh, thanks for hosting this. Thanks. Take care. Bye. Thank you for listening to publishing

Joel: for profit. Please like and

Jeremy: subscribe on

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Jeremy: Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.